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Z Brush zombie

Discussion in 'Digis - Digital Miniatures 3D Modeling' started by zodiac, Apr 3, 2014.

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  1. RKapuaala Active Member

    BTW,,, Zodiac I am a digital man myself. It solves a lot of issues for me, my poor and declining eye sight, and my lack of space to store materials and projects. I also find it to be more challenging than clay or polymers. I've never worked in marble, but I have with wood. Wood is unforgiving. You make a mistake with wood and the piece is ruined if you mean to finish all natural. The same goes for Marble. Than is one of the things I respect most about Michaelangelo. He took a solid piece of marble and did flawless work. He didn't join pieces of marble to make a finished piece. Now that takes skill.
    Digital present a whole new realm of difficulties that non-digital people can not understand. Our material is a combination of 0 and 1. They form binary combinations that represent 16 bit numerical coordinates and write those coordinates to an ascii or binary file. They have to interpolate those coordinates based on the movement of a pointer across a 2 dimensional plane with the 3rd dimension being virtual. To achieve the apperance of a solid object they need to build a polygon with at least 3 coordinates; each coordinate requires 3 numbers describing the location of a point from left to right, up to down, and front to back (x, y, z or x,z,y depending on the software).
    The sculptor gets no tactile feed back.
    The computer is not always fast enough to capture the complete movement of the sculptors hand so shapes often have flaws in that that need to be removed later
    So far, the sculptor can only use one hand to sculpt, and the other to operate the keyboard and use hotkeys to change tools, tool sizes, pressure, etc.
    The same hand used to sculpt, turn the piece around which often creates unintentional artifacts.
    When I worked with wood, I used my whole body (especially on large pieces). My legs moved me around the project; my arms left my hands and helped position them.
    One you finish a digital piece, you have to clean the whole thing up so that there are no holes, manifold surfaces, or orphaned point floating off millions of miles into virtual space
    And these are just a few of the problems.
    Sculpting, regardless of medium is difficult.
    crf likes this.

    Richard - Quite right. I am quite happy to label myself or even mislabel myself. And you are correct the term Luddite was poorly chosen as I would never oppose tech developments for others. My personal frustration in this field is my perceived view I pick up from some that THIS is the way of the future and you shall either jump on board or be swept aside. I should put that down to excitement of the face past of newly emerging tools perhaps. Maybe I am the only one getting this sub-text? I really do think that most amateur sculptors will stay traditional or go 100% digital. My prediction is that there won't be a lot of mixing going on for a specific piece. But you can ask SWMBO how often I am right and take comfort. Digital agnostic...I love it.

    Funky50, Hecky_uk and Gra30 like this.
  3. zodiac Active Member

    Who ever said jump on board or be swept aside??? I for one never held that opinion - ever. All I ever said was it is a new tool. I intend to always sculpt traditionally in clay as well as embrace and sculpt digital. I never saw it as 'either or' why would anyone perceive that?. Some of you guys on here could start shit in an empty house. This thread was about a superbly printed figure and a printing breakthrough. Thats what the thread was about not Colin's opinions on digital sculpting and what sculptors will do what and where and this childish 'traditional vs digital'. If I had known that the word luddite and the usual 'attitude' would come up in the thread I really wouldn't have bothered sharing this. Pearl before swine.

    It's a new technology and people have various reactions to it. Mine don't appeal to you clearly. There is no argument the piece you posted is superb. But you can hardly expect that the issues surrounding digital sculpting will not come up again and again, hopefully in a respectful way. I will leave this thread to my fellow moderators to watch as this is trending to the dark side. I seem to have annoyed you and my impartiality is at risk. But I won't promise to keep my opinions out of the digital forum in future.

  5. Alex Long A Fixture

    Zombie looks pretty good but some areas are a bit smooth, particularly the trousers and belt could do with some sharpening up. Eighty Grand is a huge amount of money for a printer. For this sort of technology to become viable for today's manufacturers to afford it will need to drop massively, even if you apply the theory of Moore's law (doubling of power/halving of price every two years) it would still take 7.5 years to get one of these printers to two and a half grand and Moore's law is slowing down. I'm all for new tools but I can't get excited about this until I see the same quality as "traditional" sculptors being produced at the same investment.

    Funky50, crf, Gra30 and 1 other person like this.
  6. zodiac Active Member

    Colin, for the last time, I posted this on a digital forum because I wanted to share and discuss it. Instead again I find that PF isn't the place for such conversation, nor for sharing anything of interest. You didn't annoy me, I'm just tired of the same wearisome things being said over and over. I won't be sharing anything again here, rest assured. It's not the place. LOL!!!!
  7. zodiac Active Member

    Yeah whatever boss.
  8. Alex Long A Fixture

    It's my understanding that a forum is a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged. I am just expressing my ideas and views on this subject.
    No need to be flippant zodiac.

    Gra30 and ChaosCossack like this.
  9. zodiac Active Member

    You missed the whole point of the posting and don't seem to offer anything but hypothetical big talk cheap shot 'business chatter' irrelevancies. Who cares what the machine costs today? the point is the F****g possibilities that this has opened up. The detail on that figure was superb and the equivalent of anything on the market, I know, but like I said, whatever boss.
  10. Alex Long A Fixture

    First off I don't appreciate being swore at in a forum post.

    Second, I think maybe you care what it costs since you mentioned it in the first place
    "The technology to achieve it is out of the hobbyists price range, the printer is over eighty grand but like all technology the price comes down so fingers crossed, the technology is heading in the right direction and may well change our hobby sooner than later."

    I don't think I missed the point of your original post at all. Wasn't it to show someone else's digital sculpt printed on an expensive printer as an example of how good the technology has progressed? I merely offered my opinion on the quality of the printing and the viability of it reaching the hobbyists price range. If all you want in response to your posts is total agreement with your own opinion then perhaps as you said to Colin you should share your pictures of other peoples work elsewhere. Or chill out and stop being so irate at differences of opinion.

    Funky50, ChaosCossack and Gra30 like this.
  11. zodiac Active Member

    No I don't care actually, I was trying to inform what is being done in 3D and to bring perspective in relation to the figure hobby. The thread wasn't intended to bring out radical differences of opinion, the figure is superb, the technology is there but the actual machine isn't within the hobbyists price range, even most manufacturers, however I'm sure there will be services offering this printing quality soon if not now. I saw and held the piece so therefore I know what I'm talking about. Alex and Colin your contributions to this thread were pretty rubbish, the bar needs to be raised.
  12. Alex Long A Fixture

    A bit like your photos then ;) But being serious, do you mean the bar needs to raised in terms of input on your thread by Colin and myself or the bar needs to be raised in terms of the standard of sculpting currently available from today's traditional sculptors?

    Gra30 likes this.
  13. Eludia A Fixture

    Funny thread, I love it when people think that theirs is the only opinion that counts and throw their teddy when people disagree. Keep them coming fellas, it's very entertaining :)

    Funky50, ChaosCossack, Gra30 and 2 others like this.
  14. RKapuaala Active Member

    I like and hate this thread. I like the quality of the zombie print; outstanding and I'm thankful that zodiac showed it with us this regardless of who sculpted it. I like that Colin said he respected digital sculptors and I appreciate that he cannot change. I like that Alex agreed that the zombie print looks good.
    The thing that that I don't like is the cheap shots. I don't like the cheap shots at digital sculpting by the few who come on to this thread as others have done so often in the past and make statements like 'death of traditional sculpting'. When that happens, the original purpose of the thread is lost in defense of the medium. Like it or not digital sculpting is here to stay. Digital figures have already been marketed widely to other hobbyist with a great deal of success.
    Companies like Preiser who offer figure for large scale train modelers in Europe as well as America have been using 3D scanning technology and printers for years on their figures. They take 1:10 scale figure sculpts in wax, scan them and size them to 1:22 scale after cleaning the sculpt up. You can lament the displacement of another medium all you want. Those materials will never actually go away regardless of the advancements in technology, so you really have nothing to lament or fear.
    People still sculpt in wood, marble, stone and fired clay, even though polymers have been around for a long time. They will continue to do so till the resources to sculpt in those mediums disappear and all is left is digital; not because they fear the loss of skill to manipulate one specific medium but because they appreciate what that medium has to offer the final sculpt.
    To all the nay-Sayers I have but one challenge. Pick up the tools that appear in the first sticky thread on this forum; sculpt something with those tools, and then tell us how easy it is. Then print it out; if you dare. Share your whole experience with printing. Only then can you have an opinion because without that experience your words are as empty as a paper asshole and all your tears and fears about loosing 'traditional' skills mean nothing.
    zodiac, antonio argudo and Mark S like this.
  15. Gra30 PlanetFigure Supporter

    In defence cheap shots are coming from one direction who has never ever posted anything of his own in the entire time he has been a member, possibly the challenge could start there.

    As you have seen I am interested but every time something is posted it seems to offend overly easily and from the same direction.
    Initially it was constructive but you cannot fail to see the pattern of baiting and yet again the abrupt and derogitary replies to people making simple observations as they are entitled to, all who post their work regularly, I also don't recall anyone saying it was easy but again gaps get filled with things that were never even said, which helps justify people are against and fuels an argument that never was.

    To me this does nothing to encourage supporting of the medium, without doubt this section of PF holds the most nasty of atmospheres and I rarely have seen responses like some here in any other section or forum. Maybe it is all a game but it is tiring rapidly and before long I can see only a couple if members contributing to the digital section everyone having been put off, that said if you only wish responses from those that sculpt digitally then I think you have it, why bother to be shot down every time, I sure as hell have enough work to do.
    Funky50 and ChaosCossack like this.
  16. Mark S Guest

    This is yet another bizarre inexplicable example of the usual puerile crapp we see everytime the topic of Digital Sculpting is discussed.
    Although discussed is not quite the right word.
    Anyone who wished to discuss Zodiac's posted item please continue the discussion and keep it to that, and please discontinue with the childish back and forth insults and crapp.
    Those who do not wish to discuss the topic of this thread please refrain from any further input.

    There's no reason why this topic shouldn't be able to continue in an adult fashion but if that's not possible the thread will unfortunately be locked.
  17. RKapuaala Active Member

    Thisi s the only cheap shot I saw and was addressing. The rest looked fair to me accept for the instances when the discussion started to deteriorate after the above remark.
    And Gra30 I have always valued your assessments of my work, they have been very helpful. But having been the object of this sort of sentiment by many in the past, I have to say it makes me very sensitive even to see it once in thread.
    As far as a members credibility; I can deduce several reason's why someone might not want to post any of his work here and I respect those reasons. I for one post mine because I need the feedback having been deprived of the means and opportunity to study sculpting as it should be. I find that I improve with each critism of my work, but nothing is acheived by the critism of the medium I am working in once the old 'death of sculpting' argmument is applied.
    That is all I am going to say on the above comment.
  18. ChaosCossack A Fixture

    I agree with Billy, this is entertaining.
    It seems even when the work shown and the medium in which it was produced are given their due respect... all it takes is a statement to the effect of "this looks great and it's an interesting technology but it's just not my bag" to bring out the claws and the insults. I think this medium might be better served by more examples of what can be done with it being shown. If this figure is an example of what can be done with these tools then I don't see why there shouldn't be a place in our hobby for both... Perhaps Mr Zodiak would care to share some of his works to drive home his enthusiasum for 3d and the potential for it's uses. I find I'm more apt to get into something new when I'm shown what it can do. On the other hand, being attacked for not instantly falling in line only causes my to get my back up. Human nature is to follow the carrot and run from the stick.

    This subject has taken some negative shots in other threads but I didn't find it to be so in this one and couldn't see what set off the supporter(s) of the 3d medium. I usually don't get involved in debates and certainly hope I haven't upset anyone as I don't relish being the target of any sharp replies.

    As I said earlier, this is quite an impressive example of sculpting no matter the tools or medium used. Kinda like, whether a song is recorded using guitars and drums or is composed on a computer... as long as it gets the foot tapping what's the difference?

    I look forward to seeing more such examples... and less of the slap-fighting.

    Funky50, Mark S and RKapuaala like this.
  19. Ethan Active Member

    I think the print is quite stunning and only limited by the sculptor him/her-self. On expensive printers like this the detail you can achieve can be quite remarkable and the hardest part is working in Zbrush to accentuate your details, almost to the point where a realistic piece looks comic, add skin texture, add cloth texture in this same manner and this print would be IMHO perfect! I would love to see a paint-up of this because I bet with the right paint job any details that may be lacking will not matter a bit!

    To throw in my opinion based on the last posts; all of you make great points about the subject of creating actual quality sculpture kits from printers. I have tried on 2 different home printers and while I was impressed with what they could achieve I was not getting the quality Pegasso and the like can achieve through traditional processes. However, this particular forum is dedicated to really quite small scale sculpture and 3d printers for the most part are a long ways away from getting perfect quality from 90mm or less scale. My hope is hobbyists like myself will want to paint and build at slightly large scales where those of us who sculpt digitally can actually achieve brilliant detail in print form. Along those lines there will always be tradition sculpting skills involved in printing, whether it be just minor sanding and etching to bring details back to life or even waste-casting a printed sculpture in wax etc. to really smooth and detail a piece before actual production of a kit begins. All of these traditional techniques keep alive the original reasons we started sculpting and working in digital 3D now is an enhancement of the time consuming process of getting a sculpture fleshed out and then cut into cast-worthy parts.

    Hopefully over the next few months as I get a few projects completed I'll be able to show you what can be achieved at 1/8 scale with a home printer and a lot of care and attention!
    Mark S, housecarl and ChaosCossack like this.
  20. zodiac Active Member

    OK, so, the zombie figure is about 120mm scale, maybe smaller. Someone did mention 'soft' detailing, that is down to whoever sculpted it because it sure picked up the finest detail in other areas. It's like applying milliput for a belt and then not tooling it. Ethan, the difference between home printers and the machine that did this are light years hence the quality. In twelve months the progress made in printing has been staggering, especially in areas we in the hobby are looking for ie smoothness, detail, toolability for molding etc. Now only the affordability part needs to go our way! I can see medium sized companies investing when that happens.

    So,whilst the post was meant to be informative and entertaining, I didn't bank on people find it entertaining for the above reasons. This wasn't ever meant to be throwing any kind of gauntlet down to anyone or demanding they fall in love with 3D sculpting and printing, nor was it intended as an invite for all the usual sneering cheap shots. Like I said before I'm not into 54mm wombats so I don't post on forums dedicated to 54mm wombats declaring my non interest. I love the way some said that their differing opinions count, except that this post wasn't a debate because there was nothing to debate, I was showing a superb 3D printed piece. It was taken on an iphone Alex, that's all I could do I was at a very crowded trade expo, that was a nasty cheap shot, by the bar being raised I meant actually discussing things in an adult fashion, hopefully moving on from this silly 'death of sculpting' nonsense that occurs every time on this digital forum.

    I swear some of you could start shit in an empty house.
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