hello all, lately ive been using windsor & newton oils more and more and theres so much you can do with them. my question is , i start with acrylics as an undercoat and say a jacket is blue that will be my color but ive tried shading with like a raw umber in oils and i like that i can put it in the creases and kinda "wipe" away the excess and work it in the creases . later after drying i highlight with the lightened blue . it gives alot of depth. maybe im wrong. but the darkened blue with acrylics for shading it just dosent look smooth like the oil shade. does anyone do similiar technique...and thanks for any reply. jim

Hi Jim,

It sounds like you are applying shades/highlights (oils) directly to an acrylic base coat, please correct me if I picked you up wrong. You will get much better results if you apply a very thin layer of blue oil paint, a glaze in effect, then apply your shades/highlights and blend them when everything is wet. Be careful though or it will just turn into a muddy mess, the aim is to blend the edges between each colour rather than mix both colours together. You can try shading with the complimentary colour of blue, i.e. orange. Burnt sienna is, more or less, a dark orange colour, maybe that will give you more satisfactory results.

Have a look at videos by Craig Whitaker (Mongo Mel) on the Historicus Forma site (he is also a PF member but I haven't seen him for a while). He explains things far better than I ever could.

I stand corrected, he was online at 12.26 this very day

I agree with Billy, it is better to shade on a 'wet' than a 'dry' surface with oils, not so important with enamel and acrylic. Winsor & Newton are certainly excellent oils, I've used them for years.

Mike

thanks guys , my over all fabric color is say blue acrylic or red or green whatever , my acrylic basecoat drys quick , am i supposed to? lay in a oil color of say that acrylic color first and then my burnt sienna or raw umber while the blue oil and raw umber oil is still wet ?

Yup, that's the way. The acrylic is just the undercoat, the real painting begins when you crack the oils open

Lay down your initial oil base, then add initial highlights and shadows wet-on-wet. After this lot dries then go back in to deepen shadows and accentuate highlights, but this time wet-on dry.

Jim:

As with any medium, each of us have a slightly different style when it comes to using oils (oils directly onto primer coat, oils as glazes over acrylics or enamels, wet on wet, etc). Keep in mind the theory application of shadows and highlights is the same as acrylics. However, the general process is as follows.....

1. Not all, but most of us apply a primer coat. I mist a number of thin coats over the figure. (I use Painters Touch in a can from Home Depot but others use car primer with equal success. Best to go with a grey, white of black).
2. Think of your acrylic paint as an undercoat. Again better to apply as a series of thin coats. This should be the basis for getting the smooth finish you want at the end
3. Once dry, apply a very thin basecoat of your desired oil colour over the entire area.
4. While the basecoat is still wet, apply and blend a series of gradually darker shadow tones in the folds (blue...add browns or blacks)
5. Again still wet, apply and blend a series of gradually lighter highlights tones. (In the case of blue, you can use a lighter blue or mix the highlight by adding some flesh, white or yellow into the basecoat but be VERY careful. It doesn't take much to skew the tones. Sometimes better to start with a darker tone and use your desired blue as the final highlight).

This is called wet on wet.

You can let the oils dry naturally (room temp) but this will a) take forever and b) run the risk of drying with a semi gloss finish. Better to put the piece under a heat lamp or oven (not the one in the kitchen!) for a few hours to speed up the process and get a more matte finish.

After a paint session, I put the array of mixed tones in an old film or pill container and store it in the freezer for the next step (This will keep your paint workable for several weeks). Now when the work is dry, you can go back and strengthen the highlight and shadow with your saved mixed tones. I find you need only the slightest amount of paint at this stage to get the desired final effect. This is called wet on dry.

And you mentioned you shaded with raw umber. From experience I find this tone has a tendency to muddy colours. For the deepest shades I like to use Sepia instead. Ultimately, its best to use whats called complimentary colours for shading (i.e. red/green, yellow/purple, etc).

Hopefully, I understood what you wanted and this helps

Paul

As said..we all have our methods...there is no right and wrong way as such....more a case of finding what works for you.
This may give you some ideas to play with.....

http://www.planetfigure.com/threads/my-way-with-oils.52194/

Cheers

Ron

understood everything and i thank you guys much.. ive read all comments over and over to absorb it all. for drying right now i paint (my workbench ) in a portion of my boiler room ... i leave my models to dry on there and almost overnight my kits dry instantly and flat . i also dont use much oil and try very thin coats or not much on my brush . i went to oils over acrylics bc i was not liking my shading technigues with acrylics ,, highlighting i can conquer but shading i didnt like my look ,again will experiment over and also post some pics ,, thanks jim

Hi Jim
Oils rule in my house, I like the long working time that you have with them & I also like the rich luster of oils.
I paint in oils in very much the same way as the rest of the guys on this thread..wet on wet... then when dry ....wet on dry to further enhance highlights & shadows,
I use good old enamels as an undercoat, but the undercoat has to be as near to a precisely painted & perfect figure as possible & then left to dry for 24 hrs before I add the first very thin layer of top oil coat,
I think one of the tricks that works for me is to use as little oil paint as possible and almost "rub" it into the enamel undercoat, the first lot of highlights & shadows are then added in very minute amounts at a time therefore slowly building up the desired effect & also remember to be constantly dry wiping the brush clean in between added amounts of paint, a "dabbing" motion with the brush rather then strokes sometimes helps to get the paint mixed in on the actual figure, remember the actual figure is the palette for me.
I sometime dry the painted figure in a heat box or I just wait until it dries in a dust protected cabinet & then I add "Dullcoat" to matt down any clothed areas, but I always allow flesh work to dry naturally & therefore maintaining some of the sheen on the skin, so flesh work never goes in the heat box.
I also sometimes add a thinned down wash of oils & white spirit if needed but just be aware that what ever you are adding this wash to must be bone dry & cured or you'll just end up in a right old mess.
I can't stress enough not to be tempted to "lay" on too much oil paint at once or you'll just end up wiping it all off & starting again, as said there's no right or wrong way with oils ... just find what works for you & I hope this might help in some way.
Cheers
Jim

Excellent tips there Jimbo. I, like you add oils very very sparingly on a humbrol base that is then blocked in with acrylic of a dark colour if the final colour is dark, I'm not specific, or of the highest colour value if the oils are transparent and a light colour, ie reds, whites and yellows.
As the oils are built up it starts to become more workable without having to remove paint.
I never paint or shade wet on wet but block in each shade of a colour then feather only the edges, sometimes reinforcing the highlight and shade after but only specific areas.
I find by not polluting each shade with the base and highlights the muddness is prevented, there should be the base colour untouched bridging the gap from light to shade.
Although not a golden rule, on a 54mm even if just one pea size squirt from the tube,for me at least 70-80% is thrown away. It's not wastage as such as the amount of paint lost is not that expensive but it's the end result that matters, my point being is that is how little paint can be used.

Thank you jimbo & graham, well said and understood. Ihave so many diffrent colors in acrylics and I know thats my base color , but I m liking the luster the oils give you, they already won for
boots leather and belts , but also easier to shade pants and fabric.just wish there was more oil variety colors. Again thank you all, jim

Hi Jim
You mentioned that you "wish there was more oil variety colors" I've tried mixing many different oils together to gain a colour that I was looking for & have come up with some amazing unexpected "different colours".... trouble is I never write down the mixes so on a return visit it's normally a bit of hit & miss to find them again,but good fun, so there is wide range of variation with oils,...you just have to find them mate.

Cheers
Jim

If I may ask a question as this is a good post . Does the oil paint color have to be the exact color of the acrylic color and if so aren't you just covering up the acrylic color?

No the oil does not have to be the exact color of the acrylic undercoat.

The benefits of using this technique of oil over acrylic are :
- easier to build a thin opaque layer with acrylics (brush or airbrush)
- the magic of oils come from the use of glazes of thin transparent oil color and the ability to easily shift the color, tonal value in whatever direction you wish
(so you will not cover completely the acrylic undercoat)

The cons of this technique :
- the binding of oil paint to an acrylic undercoat is not very strong. Some conservators still question the use of oil paint over an acrylic gesso primed canvas....

As Alex says you can get away and utilise different base coats of acrylic for oils. For example if I were painting blue trousers, the acrylic base can be anything from grey, brown, black, even a dark red. I tend not to go too light a base on dark colours as I like the highlight to be from the oils but it gives a vast range of tones that initially look blue until you look closer. If colours are lighter, ie yellow, white, red, then you are better starting with a lighter base purely as these oils tend to be more transparent. In theory, and I have seen it, a red tunic in oils could be painted on top of a white base, but why make life hard when you can start with a medium red as a base and work light and shade into it. It sounds confusing but it does come easier as you learn the qualities of each oil colour you have, stick with it mate, I love oils

Alex does point out well that sometimes the oils float on top and fight against the acrylic base, if it becomes unmanageable, brush out, leave for a day and start on top, the oils then give a base for subsequent layers. I always start with a humbrol white prime over everything and this seems to help bind the acrylic and also soak up the oil, preventing the oil slide that can happen.

This is oils on acrylic, the first pic is pale as the oils where floating. I left for a day and the redid emphasising the light and shade but trying to keep vibrant. I do have some from the beginning on my other camera, if it helps I can post. The bonus of oils is the palette is workable for a week, longer if covered and you can even put in the fridge aslong as no moisture. I use a takeaway lid and the main body tub is my lid when in the fridge or not used as it makes it air tight.

Jeez thats nice work on that face Graham!


Cheer's,
Jeff.

Wow that looks really great . I just started my first 1-10 scale bust and used all acrylics. I plan to buy at least the 3 primary colors in oils at first .and hope to be able to learn how to mix them to get what I want . Using the acrylics was OK but playing with the oil colors I have they are the route I am gonna take.for me they are much more forgiving . I have learned a lot from this post.

A good face mix Samson is, titanium white, ochre, red (any red really like scarlet) then burnt sienna and burnt umber. The face above was painted only in those colours, although now I may add a little black only in the deepest.
Mix the first 3 colours until you have a basic flesh. Add more white one side and burnt sienna going into umber the other. It shoukd give you a rainbow of flesh from light to the darkest shadows. That is you palette then for every tone to give you a basic face. Then you can experiment with blues and greens to give more tones, but the first 5 colurs will give you a good grounding on face painting
All the best mate
And I cannot paint in acrylics so we all find our medium that works, you are doing right by experimenting
Gra