Aw guys c'mon, I don't really care !

Gra can I order one please ?,

I'll change anything on it that I think might be 'wrong' for how I plan to
use it and I won't make it a drama.
That's because erm ....... It's called modelling, and I've got putty.

Pm me when they are ready mate,
and Moz, thanks for another nice sculpt.
P

Yeah, fer chrissake, give it an effin' rest. I used to think I was pedantic.

Looking forward to the official release of this figure and yes I will be buying it. Main reason being that I know that both Gra30 and Moz go to extreme lengths with their research and I trust that. We have to remember that this is a great sculpt and most of us know it will be a first class casting. Just look at the castings of the CGS Waterloo Commanders they look so much better than the original from the 90's.
I would like everything to be perfect in this world, but this world just ain't perfect.
Barrie

I understand you point Carl but it's funny I that feel the same in reverse, praise lauded on ridiculous models which are perfectly sculpted and beautifully painted (an example; 16th and 12th century samurai fighting side by side - I didn't comment on that despite my horror because I do not like criticising other modellers work). Wouldn't you comment if everyone was praising a new release showing a roundhead storming ashore on D Day?

I am continually having to say that my only reason for pointing out errors in newly produced pieces is to inform others. I believe this hobby is about making good models not supporting this or that kit producer regardless and I have also said more than once that I have found Graham's reaction to adverse criticism to be exemplary. I wish him or his business no harm.

Of course I cross reference those books of mine (why on earth would you think otherwise Carl?) I did not intend to be saying "I have more books than you", that is your inference. I merely stated the number of books I had as a counter to charges that contributors make comments on blind acceptance on a limited number of references. I similarly quoted the number and names of my sources that all supported a similar discussion on a different thread, not to be a braggart, but because other members did make an incorrect assumption that my comments were only being made as an unfounded attack on a sculptor that I did not even bring into the thread.

Ivo Preda said that in his opinon, the Gillet, Dolman and Pelisse could not be worn at the same time. I argued this with him myself at first, but unlike others on this thread, l then listened to his arguement.
If an item can't be worn it makes no difference if it was raining or not. Other members have already pointed out that this model is of an earlier period than Waterloo so where did that arguement come from? Even if it did pour down the evening before Waterloo, it did not rain on the day, which became quite sultry. And even if the Pelisse was carried at Waterloo at all, it would have been worn during the night, and having got drenched, would probably have been slung or stored during the morning delay in the starting of the battle, when a lot of the french troops took the opportunity to "dress" for it.

I don't see the need for comment's along the lines of "heads wedged up asses", it only engenders bad feeling in a heated arguement. This thread started as a discussion between members who genuinely appeared to be interested in the issue of accuracy. You can't have "hyper authenticity accuracy". It's accurate or it's not - you either care or you don't.

It's only when some members start interpreting these discussions as personal attacks on an individual's work that the threads become nasty. It's almost always said in these cases, "If you don't don't like it don't buy it" but I say "If you don't care that it's inaccurate, buy it and don't argue".

David I don't wanna contribute to this other than the thought that maybe a Pm to the manufacturer/sculptor causes less argument.

Manhugs to all

Happy painting

Paul

I uderstand your stance David, and while I don't necessarily agree I do understand it!
With regards to the cross referencing your libary, the point is one book may contradict another. Which is correct? At the point it was penned both authors considered their correct. In truth both may have elements that maybe coreect. Who to know to what degree.

The second I would make is regards to the "head up the ass". The broader I was making is, a figure can be anatomically incorrect. But because its buttons and bows are present and correct then the piece is deemed good! Why is that? But a well sculpted figure with area's that are deemed vague by certain parties is subjected to this type of scrutiny. I don't understand that mentality!

Have you any idea the level of damage your (and others) comments can make on the sales of a product? Because if you did you may think twice.

Now on to the figure. In my opinion Moz has done splendid job, and should be applauded not criticized.
Its an interpretation! Same as all figure are prior to the invention of photographic evidence. Which brings me back to the books. They are interpretations for the most part, taken from scriptures and sketches from the day. They vary based on the authors interpretations. What a man wore on the parade ground can and often do bare no resemblance to what they end up with in the field. There is a previous post on this thread that proves that point perfectly.

Now if you want sculptors to produce bolt upright parade ground soldiers then I'm affraid your looking in wrpng place. Because I will never create that type of piece, and I think safe in aaying neither will Moz.

But I know I will never convince you or others from the same camp of my opinions and that is fine.
But this level of scrutiny, based on the vague interpretations of authors who's dialogue and script is also open to interpretation. Is not helpful to anyone except of those who want their egos massaged.

That is my interpretation on this. But sadly Graham has suffered again at the hands of those who want to flex their libraries.

Carl

I do research figures, in fact I spend an inordinate amount of time doing so, invariably going from pillar to post trying to ascertain whether one author is right or another. I sculpted the three layers to add interest to the figure, it was my own assumption that this was possible. I based this on all three garments are designed to be worn, o.k, maybe not all together in normal practise. possible however? logically I determined it was.
If I could speak French I would contact Musée de l'Armée and ask a curator there if they thought it was possible. Not normal. Not comfortable. Just possible. I suspect the answer would be yes, given that these garments were not one size fits all, sleeves were accessible and not sewn. they are not fastened.
This is however my own opinion, until such time as someone with access to original garments can confirm yes or no I think my opinion is as valid as anyone elses. It is after all just an opinion


Can tropical combats be worn along with berets on top of riot helmets in Northern Ireland ? most would say not!

Thanks for the comment Moz, nice to know the reasons for your choices. I hope Graham's sales don't suffer. The other pedants like me, (it's not always a bad thing - safety officer in a nuclear reactor site ), would probably have had the same thoughts and not bought it anyway, but most of the people on this thread don't seem to have been put off. I have done most of the moaning here but I still think the positives outweigh the minor alterations I intend to make.
So lets all agree to disagree then, and leave the thread in a conciliatory mood.

I think this should be public because it gives opportunity for others to learn and also to decide whether they want to modify their model or not. Graham is an exemplar of how manufacturer works with their customer base and not all manufacturers receive suggestions in same way. Plus often by that time figures are cast and packed in nice little boxes with box art...

There needs to be a happy medium however, as you cant please everyone. I can see manufacturer only going so far in making changes before deciding something along the lines of " Fukkit!"

I am quite interested in Carl's point about rather mediocre figures with regards to anatomy and posture / artistic value that are being praised because they are in the "right customer" choice. I noticed that too, but also it goes other way, when anatomy and likeness is superb, but "sword handle is too big". Its almost like looking hard for an excuse why not to buy it.

Cant please everyone, can only do your best and be content with it... and know when to say "Fukkit!"

Gaudin, i hear you,
as I have just said to someone else privately

"and a wise man once said ......................nothing" !!!!!!

paul

I have just said Fukkit, I think some have too much time on their hands. By the way Graham put me down for a 200 mm lifeless wooden 3D figure when you have them.

The point is Gaudin that anatomy is often overlooked and rarely criticised in favour of the buttons and bows being present and correct.

If folks are looking for an excuse not to buy, then scroll past and buy something else. It really is that simple.

If its a case of wanting to share knowledge, then why not offer their services as a researcher. Or start random threads discussing on specific subject for example French Napoleonic Hussars. That way the knowledge is shared, contradicted and argued over without damaging someone product.

As for helping manufacturers. Heres a hyperthetical:
What a manufacturer produces a product, a debate occurs, the mmanufacturer alters the piece to match the evidence. Then someone comes forward stating it was right in first place. What happens then... ? Does the manufacturer change the piece again. By which time thw the piece will be a total finacial loss. All of based on an interpretation.

Carl

I think the potential financial impact of criticism of a model is a cost of doing business in a healthy modelling community. But easy for me to say as I don't make my living that way.

There was a case recently if a company advertizing a Zulu pith helmet with four panels instead if the correct six. I think that was caught here and corrected. Had I spent a month painting such a piece only to find out that it was wrong I would have been quite disappointed at the result and expenditure of time. That would have made me suspicious of future releases by that manufacturer and that sort of reaction can also impact sales.

The fact that Gra has responded by making optional heads and other insignia available will IMO ensure that this piece appears on competition tables in more varied forms and likely for a longer run of time than the original concept. It should also increase his market. That resulted directly from this discussion. Some of us learnt something as well. I call that a win/win.

Re. Anatomy - I will hardly ever comment in anatomy, realism of pose or balance on a figure and I regularly see brutal examples here on site that warrant some savaging. That to me would seem like a personal attack on the sculptor's skills. If a sculptor regularly messes up anatomy, it means he is missing basic training, skill or the eye to detect and correct major issues that others can see. That is when I will keep my trap shut and from my experience and some PM discussions I know that I am not alone.

The idea has been raised that if one has an issue, PM the manufacturer. I was initally in favour but not now. Individual PMs on a figure ready for issue are not going to lead to any action/revision in most cases and and more importantly those who want to learn something don't get the opportunity.

Colin

I think you're missing the point Colin.
My guess is. The alternative parts with piece is minimise the damage this thread has created!

I find it difficult to make the distinction between this form of critique and the personal attack of the anatomy of a sculpt. It looks the same to me.
The fact you've learnt something from it is scarce consolation to the victim.

But hey it seems to be a growing trend on PF, and one I won't be participting in any longer. I'm afraid my days on PF have come to an end!

Signing off

Carl

Sorry to see that Carl. Your choice I'm afraid.

Colin

Yes it is Colin!

Carl

Just to put my oar in as regards accurate uniforms when I was much younger I was a member of the Territorial Army before joining the regulars.To cut along story short I served in R Battery 277 Field Regt.,(Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders) RA.TA and we wore battle dress with Artillery and HD flashes and a Highland Bonnet until it was replaced with the Glengarry.What would a Judge make of a 25pdr crewed by a bunch of highlanders and some expert will tell you it never happened

I would have argued for you Pete mate.
The precident was before yorur time though.
The Argyle gunners dressed like that at Arnhem too, try telling someone that it's also claimed one dropped in in a kilt and watch their face!
Paul

That's all very well Paul but you really need to confirm how many pleats it had in it. Then we can all check our books and argue for ever more.

Naw someone always tries to argue all kilts for adults have the sme No of pleats,
but want to discuss knife pleats instead of box pleats and everyone tells them
they're a wee peelywally and glass the disrepectful wee fecker.
It's all straight forward up north.
We just ken,
ye ken