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Grandad's WW1 ambulance

Discussion in 'vBench (Works in Progress)' started by NeilW, Sep 19, 2020.

  1. valiant A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    The good conduct ones are the same as the rank ones, white chevron on a khaki background. The Overseas ones are blue on khaki, or red on khaki. Ill need to check how they were awarded, but I think one denotes six months.... Ill get back to you! I think they were worn on all uniforms...

    Maybe the little "badge" is a medal ribbon... possibly....?
  2. NeilW A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    OK: thanks.

    It won't be a medal... all he ever got were the 3 service medals (which I now have).

    The group photo is middle east and he'd have been in France before that but he (in fact nobody) has any insignia (except the Corporal)... unless they were new outfits and they hadn't had chance to get their 'housewives' out yet?
  3. valiant A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    four small chevrons indicate four years' service, apparently, but cant find out why some are blue and some are red.. (possibly the red ones were wound stripes) I have a photo of my uncle Albert from 1915, prior to embarkation in his Foreign Service uniform and there is no insignia on that, either... maybe a security thing, so that the regiments couldnt be traced...?!

    Steve
    NeilW likes this.
  4. kagemusha A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Whilst it may not help with the identity...you may like a clearer image to keep.....

    AmbA.JPG

    Ron
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  5. NeilW A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Thanks for that Ron (y)

    I've yet to put the original through my hi-res photo scanner so the one's I've used so far are just photos.

    BTW: notice how the very grainy/high contrast one brings out the details/edges... very useful when interpreting old soft focus photos.
  6. Nap Moderator

    Country:
    England
    Nice one Steve

    Looking at the badge ...I think it might be a ribbon looking at a enlarged picture ......it could have been a Imperial Service badge with crown removed ...but very unlikely and this was worn on the opposite side

    Nap
    NeilW likes this.
  7. NeilW A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    IT'S OFFICIAL... it's not English, it's not American, it's not French... it's Scottish!

    Thanks to Will Ward on missing-lynx (and thanks to Paul for suggesting I tried there), I now know (drum roll)... it's an ARGYLL!
    Arg1.JPG

    "A what?" I hear you all cry... "... never 'erd of 'em...".

    Well neither had I but it seems that I hadn't read my source material well enough as they're mentioned in an article I'd already found :(

    Anyway, to cut to the chase: The long defunct Argyll Motor Co* existed between 1899-1932, made some of the earliest and most innovative cars (and vans/lorries) in the UK and had a grandiose factory nestled on the banks of Loch Lomond.
    * a revival of the marque between 1976-90 failed dismally



    Some links:




    Argyll and ambulances:
    It seems that over its life (in various revivals after several bankruptcies) the Co produced a range of passenger vehicles

    ... and in c1910 a civilian ambulance (thanks to Will for the link to the quaintly titled 'The Horseless World' car-mag of 1910). The write-up (no Clarkson or Stig style road test) includes a photo of the interior and some basic technical data.
    Arg2b.JPG

    Now, I'm not suggesting that this is Grandad's or the Mauldslie version (more of a truck bed with canvas tilt and no signs of windows etc)... but it confirms that Argyll were in the ambulance business.

    That they did so during WW1 is confirmed by this about the Salvation Army Ambulance Brigade: (where I didn't attach much importance to the name):
    Arg3.JPG

    The same article has that photo from my earlier postings:
    Amb C.JPG

    Note that they were 'specially built' so probably not the 1910 civilian version.

    Will tells me that there's another photo of it from the other side in M Young's "Postcards of the Army Service Corps 1902-1918"... (if any PF member has this, a photo/scan of this would be invaluable). There it is ascribed to the Scottish Red Cross- this article discusses the Red Cross (and others' involvement), eg:
    Arg4.JPG

    So, what is Grandad's ambulance: for my money it could well be based on the Argyll 'Flying-Fifteen'... Argyll's best seller, launched in 2010 and, as the last pic shows (perhaps) used by the military (seems to be a rolling chassis):
    Arg6.JPG Arg6b.JPG Arg6c.JPG
    (BTW: note all have spoked rather than wire wheels)

    .... but I'll do more research on this before I go nap on it.... any help/info welcome!!!!!


    Regarding "Mauldslie": whether coincidence, convenience or conspiracy (take yer pick)... as previously mentioned, Maudslie is the name of a now demolished Lanarkshire estate and I surmised that the ambulance could have been donated by its owners, the Hozier family... hang on... we've heard that name before... wasn't it the Hozier Engineering Co who first set up Argyll Motors?

    Is there a link... ?
    • the Hoziers were rather too posh (Barons Newlands no less) to be involved 'in trade' and there's no mention of any connection
    • instead, the Co is said to have been set up by an Alexander Govan
    • ... in Hozier Street, Glasgow
    • by 1908 he had gone bankrupt and the Co was re-launched in 1909
    • ... then went bust again in 1914
    • the plush Alexandria factory was sold to the Navy to make torpedoes
    • and the car side revived by J D Brimlow
    • ... and eventually stopped car manufacturing in c1928... then closing for good in 1932
    Based on this any direct Argyll:Hozier:Mauldslie link sound doubtful as by WW1 any link between Hozier and Argyll (real or imagined) had disappeared and it's perhaps more likely that the donor to the Red Cross just had a link with Maudslie (could well have been the Hoziers- or a local subscription).

    Pity really as a direct link would have been nice.

    Anyway: thanks to all who've helped (I'm sure that more will drift in).. I very much doubt that I'll find a 1/35th model of an Argyll ambulance but will look at scratching (anybody know where I can get suitable wire wheels?)

    Ah well... enough for now :happy:
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  8. Nap Moderator

    Country:
    England
    WOW!!

    That's detailed info Neil ...so we are going for the Argyll

    This has been a fascinating thread and I do hope we will see this progress ..such a great tribute

    Drop a message to Marcus White ( DioramaArt ) ref wheels ...he might be able to help ...I will send him this link

    Nap
    NeilW likes this.
  9. valiant A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Try Scalelink - they do a whole range of photoetch wheels in various scales.... The wire wheels were probably used for a smoother ride and a stronger wheel on rough terrain. Glad the mystery is solved!! Look forward to seeing it in model form....(y)
    NeilW and Nap like this.
  10. DioramaArt A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    For my two peneth worth looks like a Crossley 12/14 15bhp car/ambulance without the headlights.

    CDDB1ED3-70F9-4205-82B2-6AF09E39EA1D.jpeg
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  11. Banjer A Fixture

    Country:
    England
    Although I have been unable to contribute in any way I have found this thread great reading.

    Bill
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  12. DioramaArt A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
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  13. NeilW A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Thanks for that... if I do I reckon it'll have to be 100% scratch (except for wheels).

    Re the Crosseley: I think it's now 100% established that it's an Argyll.

    Cheers,

    Neil
    Nap likes this.
  14. Nap Moderator

    Country:
    England
    Here's the service chevrons( from a Militaria auction site

    A fine ‘tailor made’ group of service chevrons representing overseas service 1914 – 18.


    The red lower chevron for 1914 with four blue representing the following years.


    Used removed from a tunic item, with a little snagging to the thread detail and grubby.

    This type of chevron on a ‘denim’ type backing were indicative of officer wear, or for the lighter weight Middle East drill material tunics.

    image.jpeg

    Another version

    image.jpeg

    The chevron was first authorised under Army Order 4 of 1918, which was published on 20 December 1917:
    “His Majesty the King has been graciously pleased to approve of the award of chevrons to denote service overseas undertaken since 4th August 1914.”

    The Army Order stated “Chevrons of two colours – red and blue – have been approved. The first chevron, if earned on or before 31st December 1914, will be red; if earned on or after 1st January 1915, it will be blue; and all additional chevrons after the first will be blue”.


    Nap
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  15. KuK_Grenadier PlanetFigure Supporter

    Country:
    Austria
    Hello Neil,
    I am following this thread with great interest and I think I found another picture of this kind of ambulance car.
    The-Salvation-Army-Ambulance-during-WW1.jpg
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  16. KuK_Grenadier PlanetFigure Supporter

    Country:
    Austria
    And another picture, that i found, this time you can also see this very typical cooler on the front.

    HollimanG2.jpg
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  17. NeilW A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    THANKS CHRISTIAN... just what I need :):):)(y)
  18. NeilW A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Thanks Nap... so not issued until 1918, so odds are that the photos are at the war's end.
    Nap likes this.
  19. Richard Baxter A Fixture

    Country:
    Scotland
    Regarding the small insignia above your relative's left breast pocket, this could well be the ribbon of the 1914 Star, the so-called Mons Star, if he had been in service from the beginning of the war. The overseas service stripes that he wears suggests this as a possibility. The ribbon had three vertical bands, of blue, white and red, going from the wearer's left. See Men-at-Arms no 402, page 41 for more detail. Is this service medal amongst your man's medals that you have? It seems to have been common practice for this ribbon to be worn on service dress.
    NeilW and Nap like this.
  20. NeilW A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Yes, he got the 1914/ Mons Star... according to his medal card he enrolled 21/10/14.

    But when would they have been awarded... I'd always assumed it was at the end of the war?

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