Euro 2012 The truth

[Jim Patrick]

This thread is causing me to lose the will to live.If Geoffrey is aware of the problems and willing to comment on the situation = Good.If he doesn't = we're on to plums.End of story.
Brian

:lol:

I can't see EM going away. EVER! It's just too established. With that said, even established shows need to step back and take a critical look at themselves from time to time. This many people voicing their opinions/ displeasure cannot be simply discounted. I am not saying EM has to revamp the judging style but it sounds like a little more conssistency could be in order.

Having judges not competing can be a very bad thing. No judges competing = less entries of a higher standard. A solution is to have an alternate judge on the team (or a designated alternate) who steps in when a judges entry is being judged.

Hopefully this forum, as well as others, can get things moving in the right direction. If nothing else? Look at this thread as an example. Civil adults sitting down, voicing their opinions on what can be percieved as a "Hot Topic". Disagreements? Sure. But look at the way it was handled. Again, hopefully this doesn't end here (not on this thread) but the conversation continues at club meetings, organazation meetings, coffee tables, hell, even pubs! Nothing will ever change when friends sit and whisper amongst themselves. Change can only take place when people openly discuss their differences as ADULTS. This thread is a "case in point".

Jim Patrick

 

[Tecumsea]

With half of the world going bankrupt does any of this really matter???

Hobbies are for enjoyment and the companionship of like minded people...........if you enter competitions then live with the frailties of human nature, judging is not a precise science and is sometimes wrong for the right reasons...........if all the Euro judges said OK you do it! where would we be?

I have never been to a show anywhere where the judges decisions haven't been questioned and others have been to Spain, Belgium, Germany, Italy, France where the same disputes exist, lets stop kicking Euro and judges in particular. If there are genuine problems at Euro and Geoffrey and the Judges are aware of it then something will be done. If we keep kicking the best show in the UK then it will discourage visitors and ultimately collapse.........the IPMS would rub their hands with glee.

 

[Jeff]

I have stayed with this thread and it seems that it would be good for the show if some things changed. I still do not see this as the common sour grapes that so many talk about. It was not some guy saying I won gold with my piece at two major shows and only got a silver it is rigged! This was saying a lot of pieces that should have gotten something got nothing, and a lot of people were saying this.

Some of the things brought up are what I would call systemic with judging at major shows. I believe a lot of shows would benefit from some changes. I have seen a lot of things brought up that really are common traps.

One that sticks in my head is the professional painter and collector issue. The fact is I have seen major collectors judging at shows and I am not saying that they are unqualified, but if they plan on buying a piece or they actually already own a piece it makes that piece more valuable to have won gold at every show it went to. I have seen painters sell a piece with the stipulation that they can take it to other shows before it is delivered. I have also seen collectors buy a piece an take it to other shows themselves. This seems to create a lot of issues.

What I would like to see is for us to start a new discussion of things that can be changed for the better. I would suggest this be a well moderated discussion of judging in general but with the open system being the most common form of figure show judging is were I think we should focus. Maybe we can come up with ways to negate some of the issues at had with some simple rules and suggestions that we can pass on to the major shows. That may help to change things for the better. This thread seems to be at and end as far as I can see, and maybe we can make a positive out of something that some view as a negative or unwarranted criticisms of hard working judges and show staff. So lets take some of the issues at hand and put our heads together and see if we can make positive changes to a very good system.

Best
Jeff

 

[gordy]

Well said Jeff, much better said than I did! I agree also, it warrants a topic all on it's own.

 

[Jeff]

Thanks Gordy,

I really do think we can find ways to change things for the better. That is part of the reason I think a moderator would really help keep things on track. So if you post in the new thread You should have a suggestion for a way to fix a problem and not just complain about something you see as an issue. By separating it from a specific show no one has to feel as if they are being attacked.

 

[Don]

Jeff
With all due respect, and you have made some very good suggestions, it IS about one main issue and a side issue about the price.
Euro is a great show but for a few years it has been going down hill. A lot of members will remember the two marquees and the shoulder to shoulder passageways to get to the traders, sadly long gone.
I introduced the thread to perhaps shake it up a tad. I have never changed my mind about that and have tried to deflect the other items that have been brought up.All I have ever asked was a way to save the best show in the world ( my opinion) and what is wrong with that. Quite a few members have posted and many more visited and a lot of good ideas have come forward. However there have been a few strange posts among them.
When a certain other forum was mentioned, people rushed to protest and they even seemed to wheel out the head of that forum, dust him down and let him go, with his main aim being to attack a well known sculptor on this site. Not what one really expects when talking about a show. He posted three times (his only PF posts) then vanished into the ether, perhaps never to be heard from again.Can his insults and slagging be viewed as a worthwhile post.
Time for a new thread, why not as it seems the fence sitters have given up on here. Next problem is of course will they post on a new thread which is after all about trying to improve their show!
For myself I dont see much changing as no senior judge has even mentioned there is a problem, so all the modellers who spent sunday night monday morning in Folkestone were wrong. It seems to be a case of pay your money and shut up!
I will give Euro one more chance, but also check out some European shows this year. If Euro is the same next year then that will be my last, plenty of other shows to visit and Telfors is getting bigger for figures every year.

Lot of fuss for a guy that just wanted to improve and perhaps save a show he loves.

Don

 

[Figure Mad]

Hi Don

Can I just say thank you for this thread about Euro, I would like to add that I have seen problems and been on the receiving end of problems, both at Euro and many other shows, around Europe and the USA. And it has added to my experience of the Hobby, Good and Bad.

I for one appreciate the effort and compassion people have put into this thread and have watched it as it has developed and nosed dived from its original point.
Some of it not helpful, some of it very helpful, I hope it will help the show I really do, no matter how much.

I personally would like to be at Euro for many years to come, as a modeller, competitor, judge, club exhibitor or demonstrator, in fact what ever way I can be there, as long as I get to meet the people I have met every year since I have started going, and essentially have a good time. I would really miss the show if it wasn't on my show calendar.

Thank you again

Dave

 

[Jeff]

Don,

I do respect your points and think that it takes courage to start a thread like this one. My point is we may not get movement on Euro so long as some view this thread as an attack. A lot of us see the same sorts of issues at other shows. That is why I made the suggestion I did. I did not say this one has got to die and go away.

I believe this thread was started for all the right reasons. You felt there were issues and brought them up. The fact is many agreed with you, and that is why I do not think it is the same old sour grapes. The sad fact is you may never get answers from the people who run the show. Bringing the issues up in this way can get the ball rolling in the right direction. So I hope you do not feel as if the time people spent reading and discussing this were wasted. Far from it they have started a dialogue that hopefully can help make things better in the future. For Euro and other shows. The thread you started has gotten 9,535 views. That shows people care and are watching what is said here.

Best
Jeff

 

[Don]

Dave and Geoff. Thanks for your posts and I appreciate your explanation Geoff.
Like yourself Dave, I have been going for a long time and would miss Euro if it was not there. I would really miss the people and traders I meet as they are what makes the show. We have however seen a decline in numbers in the last few years and its that slide I would really like to stop. I feel some of this thread must have helped start something amongst the powers that be. No one is that blind, but we can only hope!
Geoff I never started this as an attack and have mde that clear over the thread. The situation we are discussing started on Sunday morning, continued all day and was pretty awful by sunday night monday morning. Over the years I have listened to a few complaints, as has everyone, but never so much and so angry, and never by judges. I had nothing in the competition so have never had an axe to grind. My wish was to have the people who complained post on here and for the people who run the show to find out how badly the judging was viewed by the punters.
Only a few did and one was attaciked for it.
Anyway, If I can I shall be back next year but if it doesnt improve then there are plenty of other shows, perhaps not as good but other shows just the same!

Don