Indeed you seem to love them.
Regards
FeR

Hi Don,

Was the Saturday I was down so I never witnessed the Judging discrepancies that upset people. As I said before though it's nothing new - but maybe its even worse than before ? Therefore I stand by what I said earlier - that judges should only be top medal winners.
Entry prices are quite high in my opinion. My good lady (who sends her best BTW) arrived late at just after 3pm and still had to pay full day ticket when they close the comp room for judging at 4.30pm. Not a big thing but if you travel a great distance there is no choice. (Managed to see ADE before we left though). As an aside - If the organisers aren't making a profit and only breaking even - then why don't they look for other venue options. In hard times places will undercut each other. Less table costs might mean more traders, more traders - more punters etc,etc. Its not the venue thats important after all.
Probaly won't be back to the Leas mate but she has marked down the Expo in Palermo as a must as we enjoyed Rome so much. Maybe we'll take in more provincial shows like Perth, Darlington or others anyone could suggest.

Regards
Nige

Don, to answer your question, or to help I don't know. The other year I was at Euro and a passer-by asked me what it was all about. So I told him roughly what our hobby was about and spent about 5-10 minutes with the bloke, as you do. Anyway, at some point he asked how much it was just to walk in, and upon finding out, politely declined and went on his merry way.
I have since thought, "We've lost a potential modeller there." I mean I think it's about seven quid just to walk in.

I know how handy the venue is for many reasons, but I think it needs to change now.

And also, if Geoff Illsley is still reading, at least take heart from this. At least loads of people still care about Euro,and very passionately too if these threads are anything to go by. So it's not all doom n gloom old son!

Euromilitaire vs Planet figure, please allow me the analogy. Every day we assist here on planet many works present for many modelers around the globe and we see many awesome works and many others of dubious quality:thumb down: but with many many more positive feedback????
This is just to argue, this is all a matter of taste and we must learn to live with it.

Believe me, mine are not a matter of taste. They are just horrible. But I´ve learned to live with it!!!

Just got round to reading all these pages , also heard about the problems re judging at euro but put it down to annual gripes, so my comments may just be a little late, Dont agree with the gold medal judges, more a time on the job type of judge, you have to have a good eye, a knowledge of the diffiiculty in acheiving a high standard and finish, to be a gold medal winner you have too assume that we are all competition animals,40 years ago i was considered a pot hunter now the world of figure painting has advanced faster than my techniques, but i can still pick out a good un.
Forums well i watch both, post more on TB because its a smaller family than PF and i have met most of the guys, Pf for more world wide issues,
Carl Reid, well.... very probaly the most genuine Guy i ever met re giving ADVICE on sculpting, Many years ago as i entered Euro clutching my scratchbuilt indian dancer bust i passed his stand and saw his latest,A INDIAN DANCER BUST, well the man was so full of advice and offered me the chance to visit his home for a day and he would give me some help on sculpting a real gent, as for the indian never made it to the table but got a HC for another scratch built bust.
Euro for The Company, most other things can be bought online!!!!
Bob

Pedro, not every man of woman is born with the art. If i got negative feedback at my first figure i immediately quit figurepainting and stayed with the AFV.
Thanks to Guy, and Rocco, i get a nice compliment about my first figure. Not that i'm alot better now, but i still love to paint figures.
If every figure gets only the negative comments, it will soon be very quiet here on the planet.
If you don't want critique, don't post it, but you also will learn nothing.
Critique must not always be negative. You can give critique in such a way that it helps the painter going forward with his skills.

Marc

Marc, wich I mean is LACK OF FEEDBACK in some works with much more quality than others not only here, here not so much, but in other foruns to. My analogy between what happens on foruns and Judge work in Euro is matter of taste dont you think the same?
I will never stop painting for receiving negative feedback. Which does not kill me makes me stronger.
Merry xmas mate!

Pedro, I will try again, the thread was not about indvidual painters or judges or traders or even the ordinary punter across the door. It was mostly about the standard of judging, and even then, more about the figures that were not judged properly.
There have been losts of posts here of people wanting to improve the system but around four people have said its fine. You do the Maths! I think your post was around #128 but as I said very few wanted it to stay the same.
Most of the people who have posted love Euro and want to keep nearly the same format. Just need someone to keed a tighter eye on the judges. that and a few minor changes and we would be back to Euro again.

Don

I haven't been to Euro but would like to one day. If the judging bothers you don't enter. I see shows, and especially big shows as vendor opportunities and networking possibilities. It would be worth it to spend a few bucks to gain entrance to a show venue that had a bunch of vendors there. Lot of deals and where else are that many dealers going to be in one place? And pay for the privelage to do so. Until you take out personal aesthetic in judging and establish a universal criteria, you are subject to variable judging dependent on individual tastes, perception, abilities and criteria for scoring. It is what it is. Unless you establish a means to, and enough of a ground swell to force leverage in the wallet by convincing enough folks to not enter, which will decrease participation, which will affect vendor participation, forcing the venue to move because of lack of attendance and no need to take up more space than necessary, and enough people are willing to say that they are not attending because they feel it is A) Too expensive, B) The judging isn't fair nor consistent, C) All of the above, get used to the idea that life isn't fair. Nor is judging from the individuals perception of his self worth.
In an ideal world, the powers that be will see your protests and commentary here, take note and make changes to either increase participation, or let it fall on deaf ears and keep business as usual. Or someone else provides a venue and opportunity to either compete with or do away with the need to go to Euro. I guess in short, either do something about it, don't go, or live with it.
Me, I'm hitting the shows I can, maximizing my time there. Spending as much time with friends I only see at shows and trying to make new ones, taking advantage of the vendor opportunities and getting as much input as possible. If it costs a few bucks, well its all expendable income anyway.
I used to drive a few hours one way, spend $50 to go out on a cattle boat to a dive spot to have people throw up all around me to dive for 30 minutes.I spend 50-$100 for a few hours of paintball on the weekends. I spend a few hundred dollars and 3-4 days to go to working and police dog competitions for 15 minutes of performance work a day and the hope of a 25 cent ribbon. Costs me $100 to go shooting for a couple of hours at the gun range and I spend 3 hours cleaning rifles and pistols afterwards. Do it because you love to do it.

I know Don, but as I wrote before is matter of taste and you have to live with it, if you disagreed with the judge " it had the horrible feeling that it was orchestrated" I GUESS you have two options: the 1st one argue with them at Euro in Folkstone face to face, and the second like Renarts wrote " If the judging bothers you don't enter" Simple!!!
SINCERELY,
Pedro

I think, but that's only me the follow.
They have to split the entries to have enough competitors on Euro. They have to do it as follows: 1: Novice.......people who haven't awarded not so much on local shows.
2: Advanced.....people who have now and then a gold or silver
3: Masters....people who collect gold everywhere.
Judge them as: 1: trought he people who won gold in the advance and one judge out of the masters
2: masters who are judging the people into the advanced, and one of the grand-masters
3: the masters should be judged trough the grand-master or people who are collecting every year a gold or silver at Euro or similar shows around the globe.
In my opinion it would be fair enough and it will help the new guys to give more on the next figure.
I think it will be a solution, but that are just my two cents, but as long judging is to people there will always be a point off disagreement.

Marc I do like your idea of the different classes. Its a great system for new or less experienced painters. Won a Commended at a World Expo with this system, how proud I was.

Renarts, Mike I understand where you are coming from. Regarding the travel, we make a weekend of it Friday to Monday, leaving home for first train around 7 on Friday, getting home around 8 on Monday night.
We, and a lot of others just love this show, meeting friends, seeing new figures, buying new figures eating drinking and if the fancy takes you entering a few figures.
Euro is just a great show and we would like to keep it but I did feel it was time someone spoke out or we would loose it, Perhaps not next year but it will happen if things dont change. Usual progress, people dont enter the competition, less people come, less traders come, even less people come, doors shut. Simples!

Pedro I agree with you, but I will point out I didnt have any figures entered so I dont have an axe to grind.
My point was on a general issue, I heard plenty of people complain, even quite a few of the judges. It was not about the judging of figures but about the number of wonderful figures that were simply ignored or "Overlooked" and if they were judged were marked so far down as to be ludicrous. All those people cant be wrong, it was never about your figure or his figure not being awarded what you wanted, this went much deeper and further than that.

Don

See you there next year Don.

Cheers

Thank you Bob for your very kind words mate....!I will always try and help anyone who asks me, if I can.
The offer still stands now as it did all those years ago!

Thanks again!

Carl

Well this thread has moved on a little. It appears that one of calm reflection has decended.

I personally have never been a gong collector and never will be, but having said that I have been lucky enough to have won a few over the years, never really expecting to. In all those years I never knew who judged the classes i entered regardless of the result and neevr really wanted to.
I touch on something Gordy said in a previous post. The best award I won was the Jahres de Modell. This was awarded by the people. I believe that only myself and Poste Militaire ever won this in the UK, but I may be wrong. The awards are always the ones that are voted by the poeple.
In fact the last time I personally entered the comp at EM was about 15 or so years ago. All the times sinse have been entered by the painters who have painted box-art for me, and entered as a collaboration. I must add at this point with no suggestion, pushing or influience from me. So I really have no Axe to grind. All I want is consistency.

The underlying message that is apparent in most of the posts is one of positivity and what a fantatsic institution EM is.

Here are some of my suggestions. (They are not directed at anyone, before folks climb out the woodwork and attack me)

I do believe that The Judging really does not require too many changes just slight tinkering is needed. For example,

The rule that says it's OK to judge pieces that are commercially linked to the Judge. Needs changing!
(It's not against the law to sleep with your friends wife, but it don't make it right.!) A poor meataphor I know, but I'm sure you get my point!

Break up what may a appear to be a monopoly, reduce the size of judges from any one group. Maybe rotate them, for example use five one, five the next, and so. (I used 10 for simplicity)

The other thing that strikes me is that the work load of some judges is huge. Is it not possible to utilise the judges that finish earlier to help the ones with a larger workload? Maybe they can then go over the classes that have reached a decission. effectively judging the classes twice. A kind of second opinion!
I'm not sure how this would work on a practical level? Just a suggestion!

I think if the judging is made more transparent, and self policed it will work better and eliminate some of the controversy. Every judge has a duty of responsibility to flag irregularities if they are witnessed, I believe this will create an air of confidence with the competitors, and make the anomolie a little easier to swallow.

Next I think the expense is what it is, I do however think it's an issue of value for money. If the consumer feels they have more for they're buck it's no longer a problem. For example if there is a continious rotaion of seminars and demo's from various painters in (Oils and acrylics) and sculptors in various mediums, it will give folks a feeling of more product for there cash. Lets face it the room if full to the rafters with some of the most talented painters and sculptors the world has to offer. It's such a pity that these talents can't be utilised.

I also think the organisors can spend there budget slightly better. For example, 2 years ago they payed a fee for a Spitfire fly past, and don't get me wrong, it was truly fantatsic a sight you may never see in our life times again, especially over the very skies "The Battle of Britain" took place 69years earlier. But everyone in Folestone was able to watch that Free of charge. Would that money not be spent better sponsoring Bill Horan, Mike Good, Raul Lattorre to come over and give some demo's/talks etc? I'm sure most modellers would prefer that!

Now for my final point.
The thing is, The landscape has changed for all shows! The business model bare no reasemblence to what it was.
Many years ago when EM was at it's most potent. There was no internet, everyone had to wait for the releases to be published in magazines. Now everyone can see every release almost immediately.
Maybe if they offered an award (along the lines of the BOS) to the best release launched on the day ( NOT PRE RELEASED IN ANY WAY) The first sighting is on the Saturday morning. This is voted by the people in a ballot format. They are given a voting slip on entry which is filled in a posted into a ballot box on the way out. It counted on the Sunday Lunchtime and and awarded along with the BOS.
This IMHO would make the modeller feel they are part of the process, instead of feeling disenfranchised, and some kind of a cash cow. It would also give an insentive and encourage manufacturers to release on the day.

Just a few thoughts that maybe could rebuild a once great show back to it's former glory.

Thanks for reading.

Carl

Super post Carl, I agree with a lot you posted and it was what I really wanted when I started the thread.
As I said earlier the judging does not need a lot of changing although I would prefer gold or silver winners to judge, not someone with an O level in woodwork (failed).
Yes rotate the judges and if some judges are finished let them, if possible, assist other judges, perhaps assisting with split decisions. I know the judges I am friendly with never judge in a class they have entered. Should not be to hard for senior judges to control and they should also inspect the top awards for their opinion.
I do like your idea of a "punters" award on new figures released at the show, let people feel they have a part to play however small. Like you I can remember the days when saturday morning was like christmas as you waited to see "The New Stuff".
The Spitfire was wonderful but as you say very costly. Perhaps seminars would have been a better use of the money, however the Spitfire was a once in a lifetime event. I wonder how many of the visitors saw the Mustang that passed the hall around ten minutes later.
I wonder, considering just how big the viewing figures have become for this thread, and some people have posted a reply with their views, Does anyone think that the judging will improve!


Don

A great suggestion Carl and one I will forward to the organisers with my endorsement.

A very poor metaphor in there Carl.

Why not just say that the current judges - or certain of their number - cannot be trusted to be honest ?

If it's just "some" rather than all of the judges, then you'd probably be best naming them for their percieved dishonesty. You've already called me into question, are there others ?

A sad day for any of them who have tried for umpteen years to build a reputation for honesty within the hobby, to be confronted by the comparison that you've made.

If it really did come down to not judging pieces in your designated class or classes by people or companies that you know, then of the fifty judges in the room at 3pm, there'd probably be very few of them not in the bar by 3.05pm.

Gold medal winners judging ? - Well, if the group in there currently aren't honest, how could you be sure that the folk in there that won gongs through being picked by "dishonest judges" could be trusted either ?

Because these "dishonest judges" are just picking their mates for Gold medals - we've established that, haven't we ?

No large groups from any one society / forum / club - so I take it that the Maltese wouldn't be allowed to talk to each other, the French chaps wouldn't be allowed to share transportation, the Belgian's and Basement guys might have to choose a different colour shirt each.....and unfortunately all the friends I do have that live a great distance away would not be allowed to speak to me ( or I them, or them with each other ) and we could really break up the hobby - Brilliant idea !

How far do we have to take this ? It's very enlightening to read how far some people think we should.

It's been interesting reading this whole thread - thoughts from one or two people who I considered friends - some of whom now appear to be laughing assassins, ready with their little daggers poised to stab folk in the back.

However, there's been some good ideas put forward by the more moderate commentators, I do hope that those are considered by "the powers that be" and even better if the people proposing them get involved by offering to help instigate them.

The bottom line is that EM struggles to get people to help. I'm involved ( apparently for my sins in some people's eyes ) simply because I offered to help out years back, and have continued to do so.

Are my comments directed at anyone in particular ? No, not really ( just like Carl ), it's just me trying in my tin pot way to answer some of what's gone before. However, the next comments are directed at some individuals:-

To the folk who in any way get of their butt's to help EM be what it is - well done !

To those who genuinely want to help it to improve in any way shape or form - go for it !

To those who want to have a go from the safety of their keyboard - talk to the organisers, supply evidence, and they will investigate it. They'll even get back to you with an answer, and will always consider suggestions for future shows for if they are viable or not.

Adrian.

I'm not going to comment on my personal opinions about the judging here...

But I will comment on the cost of the entry to the show itself.

For a "specialist" show like EM, £14 for 2 days is perfectly fine....I'd go as far as to say it's good value comparable to other "international" shows of this type.!!!

It doesn't need to be cheap.....it's goal is not to attact local Folkestone passers by into the hobby....there are plenty value for money shows across the UK that serve this pupose....these shows are mostly not for profit.

Other "commercial" model shows in the UK like this? Only one I can think of - Games Workshops's Games Day.....at the NEC outside Birmingham. Now that is a commercial beast if ever there was one. And that by comparison is £30 for one day......6 hours of, well, lots of games if you like them, a small model competition relative to the rest of the event.....with rubbish lights behind glass with a collection of buffoons manhandling your models for a commercially minded judge deciding if it fits in with the "interlectual property"......
Definately not value for money.....last one I went to I travelled with Adie Bay and we spent the day in a hotel bar next door....chatting, like at EM, to friends who have travelled from Europe and beyond. The show itself is rubbish!

I do agree on getting some decent seminars etc happening....bring in some big names.....seems to happen at many international shows, and these aren't always commercially organised, usually sponsored club shows....

EM to me is still one of the best.....there is new blood coming in....the opening up of the Fantasy classes and some us actively touting the show to those groups about how brilliant it is compared to the first past the post awards of other shows....doesn't help when the BOS at Salute (this gets the winner a ticket to Chicago to the Crystal Brush competition) gets nothing at Euro, not even a commended....so there definately judging issues creeping in...

but I wasn't going to mention that