Euro 2012 The truth

[Ron Tamburrini]

Judging is a matter of critisism, so yes I myself especially at Euro have seen the good side and the bad side but then I have to say good or bad it was the decision of a small group of people, sometimes they do mistakes sometimes they point good things, I know as I am one of them and what I decide can be a bonus for some or a bad ogre for others ... but we are human!

May I just point that what I do not like in the system is that first most of the competitors do not read the rules properly and next is that certain section year in and year out are being judged by the same duo/trio, worst is that as this is an international show I feel that judges from all countries need to be mixed up more. Every nation has it's taste and useless having a couple of judges from the same nation who do not like a particular style left to such decisions. Modelling is an art form so yes we have to keep an eye for trends and different opinions, it does not mean that with the excuse of art everything is accepted but we have to keep an eye opened and applaud who is brave. It is about sharing and discussing and not penalising a style which I do not like, but I would like to discuss my opinion and share my views to conclude a decision ...

May I remind that Michelangelo's DAVID was critisised, nowadays we say it is the most perfect piece of art!

For instance I have to confess that I do not fancy much Napoleonic subjects but when I had to vote for the BOS I did not think twice to vote for the Nap Vignette as what I saw is art, body language communication and master sculpture + paintwork, one might say it was too dramatic, faces expression exagerated, the blue of the uniform not right but what the hell, to me it evoked fear and desperation but still trying to keep their ego strong defending the colours ... and that what excel IMHO ...

So lets be positive not penalising what we do not like as one day we shall be judged aswell! And besides this is not just for Euro ...

Greetings from Malta

Ivan

Ivan

As someone who is new to the present modeling scene and has little idea what you mean by different styles, are we talking about paint types here IE acrylics or oils and or style of painting and whether they are going to be marked down for one or the other or for not following the herd, The super detailers, the dark face rosy cheek brigade or the mud everywhere division

 

[brian]

Quote- May I remind that Michelangelo's DAVID was critisised of having a big nose, nowadays we say it is the most perfect piece of art!

Hi Ivan
A big nose? I must of got it wrong again,i thought it was something else!!!
Brian

 

[Tecumsea]

Brian, I think it's actually smaller than his nose!
Really good to see that Geoff Illsley is following this thread and some good points raised by Ivan, as one of the judges his comments probably hold more weight.
Whatever the outcome of the thread it has been very interesting and a refreshingly open exchange of views. Some misconceptions have been put to bed and I am sure action will be taken to address others.
Se you at Euro 2012

 

[Don]

Keith, as the person who started this thread and as a visitor who loves Euro and is concerned we may lose it. Have read through this post time and time again so perhaps you can tell me just which misconceptions have been put to rest and which have not? I would be happy if you could clear that point up, in case I am confused and everything is all right now.
I see that you mentioned that Ivan being a judge and that his comments should probably carry more weight. Are you kidding there have been around 4 or 5 judges on here already, should their opinions just be dismissed.
Great to see the first of the boys from Malta on this thread as one of their members produced the first incandecent modeller I had seen this year, not the only one, saw quite a few after him but others came from the UK Spain, Italy, one of these chaps from Italy was into the exploding level when he marched out of the contest rooms.
It is nice to know that Geoff is reading this thread, it would be nice to know he was also thinking what to do with the problem we have been discussing. I notice it has had over 4.800 people reading it, so the original complaint must be attracting members to at least view it even if they dont post on the thread.
Have just read some amazing posts on a thread about the armour. Shocking posts but as is normal they attack the people entering the contest rather than having an inward look at other items raised by the complaint.

Don

 

[Tecumsea]

Hi Don, I perceive that you are attacking my post to further your own argument rather than trying to interpret what I have written, I'll try not to be offended but will reluctantly elucidate,
1) In my opinion a clear misconception regarding the judging of the Basement figure was cleared up by Adrian.
2) Some Exhibitors are semi professional and professional modellers-so perhaps winning a medal is more to do with the price they can command for it afterwards, this puts extra pressure on themselves and the judges.
3) 4800 people may have read the thread but it doesn't imply that 4800 people agree with it-many will have read it and posted on it several times.
4) I am well aware that several Euro judges have posted and know most of them personally. Ivan actually posted a genuine concern and a possible solution to it which is why I mentioned him specifically-I didn't say that he was the only one who had!

For me the fact that Geoff Illsley is looking at this thread is sufficient-he is a man of integrity with a difficult job to do-now that the dirty washing has been aired I am sure we can rely on him to take any action within his compass that he deems necessary in conjunction with his team of judges.

Keith

 

[Chevalier de Malte]

Ivan

As someone who is new to the present modeling scene and has little idea what you mean by different styles, are we talking about paint types here IE acrylics or oils and or style of painting and whether they are going to be marked down for one or the other or for not following the herd, The super detailers, the dark face rosy cheek brigade or the mud everywhere division

Hi Ron,

I was refering to conservative paintings styles vis a vie to the overhead Spanish School style and the Ciaro Scuro style loved by Italian painters. Obviously all are accepted as artistic styles but surely not everyones cup of tea ... that is why I was refering that a mix of opinions surely help in a better decision.

For example another section that always had a let down to me during Euro were dioramas and vignettes are involved, judges used to look and consider more the painting styles then what really matters, the story and the message. This year the chief judge placed a team that were professionals and true diorama builders and the results spoke immediately, infect the BOS came from one of those sections ... so gentlemen do not see everything in Euro that is bad, some things are already moving IMHO!

Many here are grumbling about Euro, but to me from the years I have been competing I have to see an expo that will parallel what had been done during Wold Expo Roma ... personally that was the worst event I have ever attended with the worst idea of judging!

Let's be positive and try to point out what competitors want [besides medals] and judges to notice ...

Ivan

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

Hi Ron,

I was refering to conservative paintings styles vis a vie to the overhead Spanish School style and the Ciaro Scuro style loved by Italian painters. Obviously all are accepted as artistic styles but surely not everyones cup of tea ... that is why I was refering that a mix of opinions surely help in a better decision.

For example another section that always had a let down to me during Euro were dioramas and vignettes are involved, judges used to look and consider more the painting styles then what really matters, the story and the message. This year the chief judge placed a team that were professionals and true diorama builders and the results spoke immediately, infect the BOS came from one of those sections ... so gentlemen do not see everything in Euro that is bad, some things are already moving IMHO!

Many here are grumbling about Euro, but to me from the years I have been competing I have to see an expo that will parallel what had been done during Wold Expo Roma ... personally that was the worst event I have ever attended with the worst idea of judging!

Let's be positive and try to point out what competitors want [besides medals] and judges to notice ...

Ivan[/QUOTE

Hi Ivan

Im afraid you will have to forgive my ignorance and perhaps even enlighten me to the two paint schools you mention as I don't know the difference, perhaps on a separate thread or Pm as we are moving away from the original subject.

Cheers Ron

 

[MCPWilk]

What is the role or function of Euromilitaire?

To be a venue where modellers can meet old friends, make new ones and be inspired by the work of others?

To be the premier modelling competition of its kind in Europe?

To encourage our hobby?

To get as many vendors as possible under one roof for the benefit of modellers and traders alike?

All of the above?

There are a number of different discussions going on within this thread.

The venue must be reasonably priced and accessible for all. It is not unreasonable for the organisers to make a profit, but if more and more traders fail to attend, the show will wither and die. I see no reason why a published set of accounts can not be produced, to include cost of venue, revenue from renting tables to traders and from visitors to the show. It may be that there is a suitable venue in Folkestone which would offer the same or greater floor space at a lower cost.

The competition judging similarly must be seen to be transparent. There has been more than enough comment above outlining the problems, perceived and actual, from the 2011 show. There obviously needs to be change, and this must be advertised well in advance of the show.

I for one always enjoy EuroMilitaire, and will be looking forward to the 2012 show. I hope there will be more traders next year, and yet more of the inspiring work of my fellow modellers on display.

Merry Christmas and a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year to all,

Mike

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

I know this is rumbling on a bit now but perhaps the whole idea of showcasing ones models has lost all innocence entirely and been taken over for capital gain.
There is now a lot at stake with reputations being gained or lost on someone's
judgment with the loss or finical gain which is now putting the judges under severe added pressures and being harangued like some football referee at a cup final .

 

[Colin_Fraser]

Do collectors really base their purchase decisions on whether or not a model has gained a medal? I would have thought it would be subject and quality. Next thing we will be making models out of meat or sculpting Picassos to call them "art!"

Colin

 

[Fernando Ruiz]

Hi, all

I have been watching this thread and, althought I decided not to say a word at first, I think that maybe another live testimony could be useful.

This one has been my second year at Euro. I must say that the simple fact of going to England is reason enough to assist. I love the place, the atmosphere of the event, the sellers area and the chance of being in a place that has a lot to tell about the history of our hobby. Meeting people, watch miniatures and have some beers and laughs.

This year, the talking about unfair and incompetent judging was the theme whenever you put your ear. I didn't participate in any of the conversations that have been refered here, but I can tell you that among most spaniards, the issue was talked about.

Also, I have to point out that I don't know who are the judges in most of the classes, don't know a word about the situation or politics of the organization and don't have any personal interest on that, so I can't identify what the problem is. But I have eyes in the face and there were several pieces that went overlooked while others had "questionable" awards.

I'm not the best one to point any solution to that, but I can say a couple of things related to perceptions I had these two years:

1. Organizators and maybe some british chaps (no offense intended) don't seem to be really aware of how have grown a lot of other shows in the continent. I have seen some shows in which quality and sometimes quantity had nothing to envy to Euromilitaire. The Folkestone show has and I hope it will always have a certain unique charm. But these kind of problems we are talking about, added to a well established competition posed by several other events in other places will surely undermine its position. Maybe a self perception of still keeping a privileged status is a big part of the problem.

2. Really interesting this observation, as it points out this second opinion:

Hi Ron,

I was refering to conservative paintings styles vis a vie to the overhead Spanish School style and the Ciaro Scuro style loved by Italian painters. Obviously all are accepted as artistic styles but surely not everyones cup of tea ... that is why I was refering that a mix of opinions surely help in a better decision.

It seems that style can be a bonus or a handicap depending on the judges. From some angle, it's related with the first point I expressed above. Let me show you a link to another forum in which a Euro judge expressed his opinions about technique and style (post no 10):

http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/main.asp?webtag=medrenfig&nav=messages&msg=3139.1&prettyurl=%2Fmedrenfig%2Fmessages%2F%3Fmsg%3D3139%2E1

I don't know who is this person. Maybe he is reading this thread. I would like him to give me a small lecture on what the "spanish style" is and how do you paint a miniature following it. Also, I would like to see some of his works, as they must be really interesting if he is as competent as he must be to be able to offer such bold advice. In any case, this kind of public statement is not aproppiate for a judge in an international prestige competition.

Regards
FeR

 

[artillero]

First, I would like to congratulate PF for allowing this open discussion on such a sensitive matter.

Second,I´ve never been to Euromilitaire, and surely I would like to in the future, but I will never be competing, I´m well below the standards.

Third, somehow the discussion does not make much sense as long as we refer to "certain" prizes and "certain" pieces. Concrete examples of what´s being said are absolutely imperative if we are to reach conclusions and not wander off. It is my personal opinion that any specific discussion about a particular piece (or pieces) will be much useful and we can all benefit. Of course, it should also be clear from the beginning that "ad hominen" arguments will not be accepted and that the honesty of the judges is taken for granted.

Fourth, I also think is due time to acknowledge that there are two obvious categories in our hobby: the amateurs and the (semi)professionals, very close to being true artists. For the "pros" a show is, legitimately, a place to build a reputation and a way of making money. It is impossible, in the long run, to keep things as they are now, and I think we should be looking for some solutions. The situation reminds me of what happened at the beginning of professional sports. I think we, the common hobbyists, are privileged to have the chance to watch and admire the works of the great talents of our hobby, so the challenge is to continue sharing shows with them while, at the same time, assuring that they get the recognition they deserve. I think that the idea of creating "Master" categories is a very good one, and if the different world associations were able to share the criteria and recognize "Masters" from others, the title of "Master" could be recognized around the planet.

Fifth, the discussion about the Spanish School and the Italian one is promising, but again it should be circumscribed to specific examples, so that we all could learn and have that taste of Rennaissance that it promises!

All the best

 

[Don]

Keith on post No. 105 you "perceived" that I attacked your post to further MY argument rather thann interprete what you had written, and that you would try not to be offended but would "elucidate"!
About furthering the thread or my Argument, nothing could be further from the truth, never wanted anything else than to have peoples honest opinion. I feel that is quite clear from my posts and you may note that I have stated that I would not use names or situations in my posts. I did however break my own rules in that I mentioned my respect for Geoffrey Illsley who provided excellent points when I asked him about a judged figure and Carl Reid when I thought he was being attacked for reasons which had very little to do with this thread.
I never actually saw anyone accept Adrians point that his thoughts had been accepted. I know there are different types of painters ( amateur, Pro and Semi Pro) and each has an agenda of his own which I accept but if they are just there to win accolades then they should perhaps paint to that level. I dont think judges can discard a figure due to the persons painting "position".
The number of persons viewing the thread was only to perhaps cajole other members to voice an opinion, what ever that may be, to give the broadest opinions as to members ideas. Myself I usually divide the figure by around 4 to give a better idea of people viewing as many will have visited quite a few times. However the numbers do seem to indicate that meny people are unhappy with the judging. I myself stated a concern not on the figures awarded medals but on the figures "Overlooked".
Again I would state that this is my opinion, my view on what it definately becoming a problem. I think when we have overseas members visiting the show and raising their complaints then we have to accept a problem and in order to "fix" the show, something must be done. My opinion only.

Don

 

[Don]

Nigel, great to hear from you again, as you say long time no see.
Didnt see you at Euro, I assume you went on sunday but I'm afraid sunday was not a good day for me and I was back in the hotel very early in the afternoon.
Hope you and your good lady are well and despite all the kerfuffle we will be seeing you back at the Leascliffe soon.

Don

 

[Chevalier de Malte]

Looks there are misunderstanding about styles, this is how I look at things, the traditional style is the old school of dark and light allover the same. The Spanish school were the first to come with the idea of an overhead light effect, where the top part is basically more highlighted then the bottom, creating a more realistic highlight and shadow effect. The Ciaro Scuro technique favoured by many Italians is a directional light from a particular angle creating a more dramatic effect especially due that the shadows are darkened more then realism [looking almost black].

Finally it is a mater of taste, but I feel that all are good techniques if rightly done.
So that is why I said it is good to have a different panel of judges that understand these techniques not penelising. This hobby is about sharing ...

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

Looks there are misunderstanding about styles, this is how I look at things, the traditional style is the old school of dark and light allover the same. The Spanish school were the first to come with the idea of an overhead light effect, where the top part is basically more highlighted then the bottom, creating a more realistic highlight and shadow effect. The Ciaro Scuro technique favoured by many Italians is a directional light from a particular angle creating a more dramatic effect especially due that the shadows are darkened more then realism [looking almost black].

Finally it is a mater of taste, but I feel that all are good techniques if rightly done.
So that is why I said it is good to have a different panel of judges that understand these techniques not penelising. This hobby is about sharing ...[/QUOTE

Ivan thanks for clearing up the style issue, don't think the italian style you
mention is new I can remember Juliano Bennassi showing me this technique
as far back as 1977 although he did take it to extremes ,but he also used an overhead lamp in a darkened room to produce the harsh shadows that he painted.
Anyway I'm off to paint my Dacian shield for what must be at least the seventh attempt, as for which style I will use! anything that works will
be just fantastic. :lol::lol:

Cheers Ron

 

[Fernando Ruiz]

Third, somehow the discussion does not make much sense as long as we refer to "certain" prizes and "certain" pieces. Concrete examples of what´s being said are absolutely imperative if we are to reach conclusions and not wander off. It is my personal opinion that any specific discussion about a particular piece (or pieces) will be much useful and we can all benefit. Of course, it should also be clear from the beginning that "ad hominen" arguments will not be accepted and that the honesty of the judges is taken for granted.

I see your point, but I think there's no need to give any examples. Any of the participants in this thread that have voiced the main complaint about judgement and were there (important detail), surely have some clear examples in mind (as I do).

You must understand that this thread is not aiming to tell the judges what to do by popular consensus. They know their trade better than that and are free to establish the criteria they find fit. As I see it, this thread express the well-aiming concern for a situation that must be addressed.

If we start pointing out specific examples we won't be sticking to the point of the discussion and we risk that this concern may be seen as personal anger for not having won an award.

Regards and thanks for the comment
FeR

 

[gordy]

Fifth, the discussion about the Spanish School and the Italian one is promising, but again it should be circumscribed to specific examples, so that we all could learn and have that taste of Rennaissance that it promises!

I would agree to that point, our hobby has tipped the edge of a revolution a Renaissance is has sprung forth to the foray of an art form. I know of people won't let go of the "it's just a hobby" but the fact remains that the bar has been raised exponentially in talent and quality just within the past decade.

More on the Revolution:
The internet has given the opportunity to connect modelers from all corners of the globe and new way of forming friendships beyond our borders. In the pre-internet days would I have had the chance to make a friendship with Fernando and discuss possibilities of having a Spanish artist visit the US for a workshop? Very unlikely... I would have to know he even existed for one, then imagine all the correspondence by old mail? Organising with vendors using old mail, etc?

With the internet opening new relationships, globally, events such as Euro, Expo, etc are watering holes for figurists to get together in real life. It exposes people to new styles of painting, new dynamic poses for anatomy, etc. A figurist in one region adopts a style from another figurist region so on and so forth.

This new paradigm brings a schism to the old ways: new styles of painting, new thinking, voices from far reaches that offer dissenting perspectives.

There are two things emerging that compounds a judges difficulty:
The divergent styles of painting (having to be more subjective)
The monetary factor e.g. collectors only buying gold winners (a taboo topic [surprisingly] mentioned in this thread)

The monetary factor is a long shadow that taints the spirit of any competition. I can't perceive of a solution for that, "For sale" and "Not for sale" categories seem silly

To me, the most cherished awards are the "peoples choice" or "popular vote" awards, not given by judges but valued recognition from peers.

 

[artillero]

1. I see your point, but I think there's no need to give any examples. Any of the participants in this thread that have voiced the main complaint about judgement and were there (important detail), surely have some clear examples in mind (as I do).

2. You must understand that this thread is not aiming to tell the judges what to do by popular consensus. They know their trade better than that and are free to establish the criteria they find fit. As I see it, this thread express the well-aiming concern for a situation that must be addressed.

3. If we start pointing out specific examples we won't be sticking to the point of the discussion and we risk that this concern may be seen as personal anger for not having won an award.

4. Regards and thanks for the comment
FeR

1. I´m very sorry. I didn´t know this was a thread open only to people who were at Euromilitaire. You like to criticize without any need to explain why. Sorry I didn´t get that. My deepest apologies.


2. I must understand. Indeed. I didn´t know you own the thread. Sorry. And, besides, Popular Consensus...that actually sounds a little bit terrifying, wouldn´t you agree? Thank God there are people who know better than that...


3. So true. If we started to discuss about specific examples (say, some figures) we would be risking discussing about figures...Good Heavens...then even people who were not at Euromilitaire could have an opinion!!


4. Thank you, indeed. And no hard feelings. I just love arguments.

 

[Don]

artillero, the thread was never about people who had not been to Euro, it was opened as a way of making Euro better. Quite a few members witnessed some strange judging standards and I was looking for ideas to improve the judging.
Another point raised was the price for entry, it grows like Topsy. Has got very high over the years and in these tough economic times I was wondering what other members thought.


Don