Euro 2012 The truth

[Robin]

Don't get me wrong I'm not here trying to pistol whip The Basement, which it may appear I'm trying to do.
I have plenty of friends on TB. On the whole they do a great job tavelling around the country putting on shows, they're masterclasses etc. But the overriding ethos of the forum is one of negativity IMO. They pride themselves on critiqing pieces rather than point out the positives. The saying goes more stick than carrot.
Now if they are bringing that to the comp room at EM, you can see why they are being labbelled.
It only takes a couple of contentious decissions and the seed is sewn. In the same way they like to pride themselves on ctritiquing, they should be able to take the critique on the chin.
I not tarring all the members with same brush, and if they think that, then I apologise.

I'm just passionate about the hobby and the show.
It a fabulous show. For the me the best show in the world and I will do all I can to promote it.

Carl

You do make me chuckle, you remind me of my Dad when I was little, telling me that he was doing things for my own good when really he just wanted me to shut up....

You are having a dig at TB, whichever way you put it and I am glad that you have apologised to the members because they deserve it.

Yes we do advocate critique, but we don't advocate it above anything else, encouragement is there too in spades, and lots of people have benefited from it, we know this because they tell us.

Its not for everyone the TB forum, that we also understand, which is fair enough.

Negativity, thats one word I would never have thought TB could stand for.... after all the things it tries to do......

Still chuckling now........


Robin

 

[Nap]

Carl



Yes we do advocate critique, but we don't advocate it above anything else, encouragement is there too in spades, and lots of people have benefited from it, we know this because they tell us.

Its not for everyone the TB forum, that we also understand, which is fair enough.

Negativity, thats one word I would never have thought TB could stand for.... after all the things it tries to do......




Robin

Hi Guys ,

I feel I must post after Robins reply ref TB , I am a member of the forum and very pleased that I am , it is IMO the fact that posts offer constructive critique that my painting has improved so much since joining , in addition to gaining many friends who I value .

TB is as is this forum well known and both of us in our own ways promote the hobby and I totally agree with Robin that negativity is something that is definatly NOT what TB is .

You all have a choice as to which forum(s) you join and each has its characteristics and indeed characters ...for me I am happy to be with several that I am a member of.

Nap

 

[carl reid]

Carl

You do make me chuckle, you remind me of my Dad when I was little, telling me that he was doing things for my own good when really he just wanted me to shut up....

You are having a dig at TB, whichever way you put it and I am glad that you have apologised to the members because they deserve it.

Yes we do advocate critique, but we don't advocate it above anything else, encouragement is there too in spades, and lots of people have benefited from it, we know this because they tell us.

Its not for everyone the TB forum, that we also understand, which is fair enough.

Negativity, thats one word I would never have thought TB could stand for.... after all the things it tries to do......

Still chuckling now........


Robin

Chuckleing followed by denial is the usaul default reponse when faced with reality.

You must have noticed the lack of activity on TB just lately.
But hey thats not my problem.

Maybe you should do a straw pole of your subscribers to see.

You will always have foks who respond better to critism, where others respond better to positivity, the stick and carrot should offered in equall amounts IMO.

By the I think my up bringing was slighly different to yours. My old Fella would just say shut up, or a slap both worked! So if I wanted you to shut upI would just say believe me!

I don't think you and I will ever see eye to eye Robin so I guess we should just go our seperate ways!

Carl

 

[carl reid]

Hi Guys ,

I feel I must post after Robins reply ref TB , I am a member of the forum and very pleased that I am , it is IMO the fact that posts offer constructive critique that my painting has improved so much since joining , in addition to gaining many friends who I value .

TB is as is this forum well known and both of us in our own ways promote the hobby and I totally agree with Robin that negativity is something that is definatly NOT what TB is .

You all have a choice as to which forum(s) you join and each has its characteristics and indeed characters ...for me I am happy to be with several that I am a member of.

Nap

Nap

I too have valued friends on TB. Some of which I haveknown for many many years.
I just think that Critism is not always the best way to improve, constructive or not. There is atipping point where constructive becomes destructive. The problem is everyone tipping point is different. Like I said previously Critism and encouragement in equal amounts works better.
It would be interested to know how many member have been lost with this policy. But thats something that will never be known.

Carl

 

[elanlane13]

I'm sure the many hundreds of PF members around the world must be looking at this thread with a wry smile across their faces. We British are amazing!
First:
We moan about a show that people travel to from all over the globe by saying it's too commercial (I thought visitors saved for months in advance to spend their savings on new releases. Do we want fewer traders?)
Then:
We complain that the judges are too critical. (I've been judging at model shows since the 1970's, I have had the privilege of judging at Euro and in Europe. Perhaps I've missed the point over the decades but I thought a judge was supposed to be critical)
Finally:
We decide to have a go at a forum that exists to promote figure modelling in the UK.

Thank goodness for Keith's voice of reason.

Stuart and Carl you are both right Euro is a great event, I was at the first one and enjoy even more now.

I don't quite know why the Basement seems in line for a hatchet job, I must have been away on the day that the perceived meeting about world domination took place.

Just imagine how much we Brits would enjoy it if the organisers of Euro decided to pack it in and the Basement went off line, the moaning would reach stratospheric proportions

 

[Robin]

Carl

That might be right about chuckling, mine was not a demonic or loud cackling ala a James Bond villain , more of a nice gentle laugh at the replies you made....

What reality...... you do know this is a hobby don't you..... maybe a tad more for you because you make a living from it... but a hobby all the same, one I put a lot of time and effort into....

@Rob

Your right about World domination Rob, you were absent that day... so for your information we have it penciled in for 2013....... Muhahahaha ....*** strokes his white cat

Robin

 

[elanlane13]

I too have valued friends on TB. Some of which I haveknown for many many years.
I just think that Critism is not always the best way to improve, constructive or not. There is atipping point where constructive becomes destructive. The problem is everyone tipping point is different. Like I said previously Critism and encouragement in equal amounts works better.
It would be interested to know how many member have been lost with this policy. But thats something that will never be known.

Carl

Carl you are of course quite right, people react to praise and criticism in different ways. I have posted commercial and non-commercial pieces both here and on The Basement and received praise and criticism. The praise is nice but the critique is what has made me a better sculptor. Once at Euro I asked a well known commercial sculptor, whose work I admire greatly, for critique on one of my commercial pieces and as requested it was given in spades. I will admit my ego took quite a bashing, but the next piece I sculpted was much better

You are also right that people can make their own choice as to what forums they can frequent, there are many after all, (As I posted above The Basement has never been after world domination), if it's not for them that's their decision.

 

[kiwi45]

Well guy's, what an interesting thread. Living over here in New Zealand I have attended Euro once in 2006 on the tail end of an OE. at that time I was an armour modeller and my veiw of the show was of the highest regard, I was lucky enough to win a commended medal and also I took a figure of John Belcher's (old Maori warrior) which won a gold. you can imagine our excitement from that. I told John all about the show and over the last couple of years Andy Cairns (also from our model club) and John have since attended. other years some of us have sent over entries by proxy, this is exciting also, waiting to see results etc. We over here look at Euro as the ultimate show and may I say that 4 or 5 of us are in the early stages of planning to come over for the 30th show in 2015, any gripes aside it is mainly the show and to meet the personalities and the social gathering that attracts us, any medals are icing on the cake. I chuckle when people talk about the cost to be there, have a thought for us, as it is a big undertaking. So with luck you will have a contingent of Kiwis landing on your shores. les

 

[stu]

I for one cant wait to see you there les its great to meet people from so far away.

Personnally i love south island, nearly emigrated there, beautifull place and great people.

Stu

 

[Guy]

In the 40 years of painting figures and attending all the US shows I have seen this type of judging destroy clubs and their shows. For the middle 2 decades I was also a judge and on several occassions was told by a senior judge, "This figure deserves a Gold....the painter is a hard worker for the club". Right then I strongly advocated against it getting even a sniff of a gold and it eventually placed silver. The figure clearly did not warrant a gold as the others in question were better painted. On many occassions I have had judges try their best to influence my judging by stating what figure I should nominate for each place.........all this type of judging will hurt the hobby more than it will help and eventually I declined from judging as well as being in the competition. If I took figures to show they were clearly marked "Not In Competition". I did this to clearly support the hobby but refused to take place in their club's competition. Its a shame that some people put so much stock in competition .

Back in those days before the forums existed there was no way to effectively complain about judging as any letter you sent would be lost in a shuffle or purposly thrown in the round file. Maybe we need to establish and International Judging panel to effectively handle the complaints we see happening today and oversee the judging by each show. Not to interfere during the judging but to publically report on the judging of the show afterwards. It would make the judges more accountable and less apt to use their "Good Ole Boy" system often seen now. I firmly believe that if the shows cease to happen the hobby will take a nose-dive to its grave.

No matter what system of judging is used......its only as good as the integrity of each judge.

Through all the years of attending shows it was my opportunity to buy figures and would quite often have a large sum of money I had saved all year for to do so. So having the traders their was important to me and many other painters as well. It didn't take long to go thru a sum of money but afterwards I would look for the figures I wanted to buy later in the year. The traders are there for this exposure as well as sales at the shows.

Forums

As far as the comments about particular forums. We all have our favorite forum that we spend the most time on. Each forum has its own personality and ways of doing business. The forums I don't care for are seldom visited by me as is probably done by others. I have read many negative comments about planetfigure and feel they are intitled to their opinion and rarely counter post or feel the need to. I don't need others to make my choice or govern my opinion.

 

[stu]

Great points Guy.

Maybe the judging at Euro does need to be opened up more instead of its closed shop.

Kind of like a panel , watching listening and having no involvement in the judging at all. Observers is the term I believe.

These people could then be called upon if needed.

Spoke with the organisers today and the good news is that trade Involvement from around europe is up with more interest shown.

Off to plan for next years releases. 9 months and counting. As Carl said the hard work starts soon, the fun comes in september, see you there

Stuart

 

[Gellso]

Been in loads of competitions where guys who painted their figures with a branch and two colours won....... but they did get a mention of thanks for briniging the most chairs for the club or the wife made all the sandwiches..
Independant judges do it for me.

Why not tell the guys who run Euro all that you feel should change and see what they come up with.
This will also give them achance to explain their side of the story.

 

[Babelfish]

Been in loads of competitions where guys who painted their figures with a branch and two colours won....... but they did get a mention of thanks for briniging the most chairs for the club or the wife made all the sandwiches..
Independant judges do it for me.

Why not tell the guys who run Euro all that you feel should change and see what they come up with. This will also give them achance to explain their side of the story.

As I said earlier, I don't get involved in the politics of shows and competitions, but at Euro this year even I was surprised to see a Gold go to a (in my humble opinion) rather ho-hum figure entered by a certain well-known Scandinavian painter who was attending his first Euro for a number of years.

I'm not saying that it was a "bad" paint. I'm not even claiming that I could have done it better. I just felt that it was (by the usual very high standards of Euro anyway) very ordinary. Certainly nothing spectacular or stand-out. Just kind of "decent club standard".

And yet it carried off a Gold, while some superb pieces by "Joe Soap" were overlooked or only picked up lesser awards.

I'll probably get shouted down as a heretic for saying so because this guy seems to be revered almost as a demigod by some in the hobby. But it did seem to me that the award was less for an outstanding paint (as you'd normally expect) and more a "Great To Have You Back" / "Please Come Back Again Next Year We've Missed You" / "Lifetime Award For Services To Euro" kind of deal. An award that in this case went purely to the "name" rather than his work.

And having spoken to a couple of other attendees about this, I know they felt the same about it.

- Steve

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

As I said earlier, I don't get involved in the politics of shows and competitions, but at Euro this year even I was surprised to see a Gold go to a (in my humble opinion) rather ho-hum figure entered by a certain well-known Scandinavian painter who was attending his first Euro for a number of years.

I'm not saying that it was a "bad" paint. I'm not even claiming that I could have done it better. I just felt that it was (by the usual very high standards of Euro anyway) very ordinary. Certainly nothing spectacular or stand-out. Just kind of "decent club standard".

And yet it carried off a Gold, while some superb pieces by "Joe Average" were overlooked or only picked up lesser awards.

I'll probably get shouted down as a heretic for saying so because this guy seems to be revered almost as a demigod by some. But it did seem to me that the award was less for an outstanding paint (as you'd normally expect) and more a kind of "Great To Have You Back" / "Please Come Back Again Next Year We've Missed You" / "Lifetime Award For Services To The Hobby" kind of deal.

And having spoken to a couple of other attendees about this, I know they felt the same about it.

- Steve

Well Steve
This was my first visit in many a year " unfortunately didn't get treated like a Demi God"
I enjoyed the show immensely but did become aware of grumbling in the background,
I think you have a valid point though some people did deserve better, "not me I hasten to add" A particular horse painted by a well no participant was apparently the wrong shade of black if there is such a thing, another member staying at our wonderful Hotel was about to commit seppuku over the wrong shade of green on an AFV, must admit it looked good to me and although I no HE HAW about tanks I do no the the paint would at times be thinned with all sorts of things ,even urine so shades would differ even depending on the mix the diluter
drank that day But then again Im no Demi God (YET)

But certain things do need to be addressed thats for sure.

Ron

 

[carl reid]

Carl

That might be right about chuckling, mine was not a demonic or loud cackling ala a James Bond villain , more of a nice gentle laugh at the replies you made....

What reality...... you do know this is a hobby don't you..... maybe a tad more for you because you make a living from it... but a hobby all the same, one I put a lot of time and effort into....

@Rob

Your right about World domination Rob, you were absent that day... so for your information we have it penciled in for 2013....... Muhahahaha ....*** strokes his white cat

Robin

Wow I didn't realise you were so talented......
I thought I was reading an Ian Feming spy novel...!

Carl

 

[brian]

This thread has thrown up problems which are apparent at Euro judging, and to end this to and fro of opinions i reckon Geofrey Isley should be made aware of the opinions that have been voiced. In my humble opinion it could be sorted out quite easily by,firstly keeping the same judging rules and yes,keeping the same judges, but having the judges more accountable for their decisions by using the right to question the judging of your figures if your not content with the decisions, and Geof is the man i.e. Chief judge!!!!
Personnaly since i've got older, or maybe i should say too old, i'm not too fussed about medals anymore ( although i wouldn't refuse any forthcoming thoroughly deserved Golds etc,etc,), but i used to be ,as it's a competition and you always get a buzz if you do well and are awarded for your work,although i was never one to moan if i got what i thought was a bum result, but there are people who moan after the event of their results.Too late in my opinion.If you reckon your figure has been judged badly then you have to bring it to the attention of the Chief judge in other words put up or shut up, as all this negativity about Euro judging is bad press for agreeably an expensive show to attend, but still worth every penny and still a very prestgious show and for some their livelyhood ,which will survive and prosper as long as we don't allow this fixable problem to wither on.

The ball is now in the court of the Chief Judge to vent his opinion rather than stay silent, as i've never heard any feedback and this grumbling has got worse over the last 2 years.These matters can't be allowed to fester anymore.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to All.
Brian

 

[carl reid]

I'm sure the many hundreds of PF members around the world must be looking at this thread with a wry smile across their faces. We British are amazing!
First:
We moan about a show that people travel to from all over the globe by saying it's too commercial (I thought visitors saved for months in advance to spend their savings on new releases. Do we want fewer traders?)
Then:
We complain that the judges are too critical. (I've been judging at model shows since the 1970's, I have had the privilege of judging at Euro and in Europe. Perhaps I've missed the point over the decades but I thought a judge was supposed to be critical)
Finally:
We decide to have a go at a forum that exists to promote figure modelling in the UK.

Thank goodness for Keith's voice of reason.

Stuart and Carl you are both right Euro is a great event, I was at the first one and enjoy even more now.

I don't quite know why the Basement seems in line for a hatchet job, I must have been away on the day that the perceived meeting about world domination took place.

Just imagine how much we Brits would enjoy it if the organisers of Euro decided to pack it in and the Basement went off line, the moaning would reach stratospheric proportions

Hi Rob,

With reagrds to the "critiacl judging" I think a slightly better word to use would be thorough, because critical imediately indicates negativity IMO. It's just as easy to judge with a positive frame of mind as it is to judge negatively.
My point is that if the genareal ethos of TB is one of critique, then by it's very nature you are starting with a negative frame of mind.

Your a teacher Rob, now I'm farely sure as a parent of a teenager the general ethos of the education system in the UK isone of encouragement rather than critism whether thats constructive or not. Now I for one will never see how critism can ever be seen as a positive.
I know a man who attended EM for many, many years without a hope in hell of an award. He attended two Pegaso workshops in Siena, and together with what he learnt there and positive feedback from myself, Pietro, Luca, fabio he has gone on to win several medals in Siena and EM. That IMO is what positive feedback brings. At no point was the feed back critical only positive direction was offered.

Now for the judging at EM.
I remember having a conversation with yourself at EM a couple of years ago. During this you said " Green is the new black" this was directed at aparticular painter. You have also said similar on the basement. Now thats fine it's your opinion and you entitled to have it. but do you think it's possible that you may take tat pre-form opinion into the competion room? Or would you say you judge with a completely open mind? Just an observation of mine that may cloud a judgement thats all.

Another point that may raise questions over the TB's impact and whether it's good or bad in the comp room was. Adrian judged your Postlethwaite piece in the scratch built bust class. Is that not a conflict of interest? Given it's one of TB Range, and for those who don't know Adrian is The Basements cofounder.
Also was the box-art not painted Steve Walker? Only the piece in the comp was Malcolm's wasn't it? That would mean it's in the wrong class, and Adrian must have known that.

You see the thing is I don't care who judges, whether it's all TB, all Maltese, or Italians or a combination of all etc. As long as it's consistent. The least a modeller should expect is his piece is judged fairly and has fare crack of the whip, that all they want no more. Thats not too much to ask I think!

But I feel this critical judging thing just isn't right. It starts off negative and gets worse. At what point does critical become harsh and harsh become venomous, and venonous become targeted etc. Then if some judge critcally and others judge positively it becomes an absolute lottery
as to the class and judges are judging your class.

I would just like to add one more thing, I appreciate the work and the thankless task judging is. But there needs some level of consistency.

Well that my final post on this matter, I have put my neck on line enough. It's for someone else to pick up the baton if they feel strongly enough.

Carl

 

[BobLff257]

Great thread this, some really good points have arisen. I have attended Euro from the start as a trader and have probably missed two shows as a trader due to clashes of shiftwork, but have always managed to visit on one day, such is the allure. It would be a great loss to the hobby to allow it to wither on the vine and die so I really hope the organisers take note and consider the views being expressed, as similar views have been raised before and nothing, that I can tell, seems to have changed.
As has been said, attendances have fallen steadily and dramatically since its conception, traders and visitors alike. There was a time when you couldn't escape from your stand as you were besieged by customers. The venue, Leas Cliff Hall, was adequate then, maybe even too small, but maybe the time has come to change the venue. I know this would cause consternation as the location, facilities and access provided by the Leas Cliff has become synonymous with the whole event, and indeed it is a very nice venue, but if the expense of hiring this hall means a subsequent higher cost to traders and visitors, it will result in even fewer attendances. I understand the location of Kent is convenient for our Europeon friends, but there has to be a more viable option within the same vicinity; hotels with conference rooms, bars and accommodation all under one roof, deals to be had, one happy familly! just a thought.
What really does concern me each year is what appears to be the lack of security on the 'setting up day' on the Friday, indeed this year an vagrant, who appeared to be intoxicated, stumbled into a colleague's stand next to mine and damaged some figures. This should not be able to happen. With so many valuable and delicate items in that hall, security should be tight and access allowed only by pass.
I'll give my fingers a rest now and look foward to your comments.

Rob

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

Just a little note on the point of negativity expressed by Carl.

While partaking in a little beverage on one of the evenings in the Leas Cliff hotel, I got speaking to one of the judges, I said to him I would not like to try and judge that lot. The reply I got was oh! we can always find faults.
My inner thoughts were, should you really be a judge, I was later informed he was a basement member, so maybe it is not just the judging that is at fault but also the growing riff which seems to be ever widening between a couple of forums, as I have said before I am new back to this hobby but there does seem
to be an us and them attitude and a looking down on the lesser mortals who make up the rank and file of this hobby, modelers and traders alike.
Perhaps the senior judge should pitch in with some thoughts for the good of the hobby and the show.

Ron

 

[DEL]

Ron
I remember the matter of the horse very well.
'A particular horse painted by a well no participant was apparently the wrong shade of black if there is such a thing,'
I have to say that in my humble opinion this particular figure absolutely merited higher recognition than it got. The horse was beautifully painted, cleverly and subtley shaded throughout. One of the points of 'falure' I was told, was insufficient contrast to define musclature....ridiculous.....it was there in spades if you looked. The thing is a number of current judges and past judges expecded this do do extremely well and yet the category panel clearly were of a collectively or concensually different opinion.
Cheers
Derek