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Euro 2012 The truth

Discussion in 'General Figure Talk' started by Don, Dec 13, 2011.

  1. Robin Active Member

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Hi

    I did have previous knowledge that there was disquiet about the judging a couple of classes in particular and certain models especially with in those classes, and also the link to TB, but will say, Geoff the chief judge is easily approached and easily found if asked for and will listen to any/all complaints about judging.

    I put down what I heard about the judging/TB to the the usual post Euro moaning and that perhaps these people didn't fully understand what was happening and had to find something to moan about or someone to snipe at, it seems the usual state of affairs.

    Sorry about the mix up I just used you as an example people may all know Brian, as a judge/painter that belongs to many forums, I did not mean that you were the one talking, in my experience I do not think you would have much trouble standing in front of me and telling me to my face what you thought of me, you come across as that kind of person.

    Just as an aside... did anyone mail the organisers after Euro to give their opinion?

    I know I did, Euro is a show I love to go to, its far from perfect and there were things that annoyed me over the weekend which I passed on.

    Interesting discussion,

    Thanks

    Robin
  2. brian A Fixture

    Country:
    Scotland
    No apology needed Robin.What worries me is that i heard that some europeans stating that they won't be back.Hopefully they take their problems with judging up with Geofrey rather than storm out,as we need these guys at Euro.
    Brian
  3. carl reid A Fixture

    Country:
    England
    I would like applaud Brian and Dave for raising there head above the parapet.

    I know of several experienced judges from various parts of the globe that have concerns over the impact the basement has had in the competition room. I think the words used were harsh, venemous and targeted judging. another word used was agenda.
    Now if that is the case then it really needs to be dealt with by the powers that be!
    These Judges have no axe to grind it just what they obsverved. So to have so many valued judges to form the same opinion, then there clearly is an issue that needs to be addressed.

    Yes there is always controvercial decissions at Euro surounding the competition. But I have never seen it this bad in more than 20 years attending and trading.

    Carl
  4. Robin Active Member

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Brian

    I actually think that some people forget that Euro does not stand alone anymore as a premier model show i Europe, theres quite a few of them, and why travel all that way when you don't have too, though I do agree, any painter who doesn't go to Euro is going to be missed, it was great to see Mike Blank back, corking pieces he fetched too.... great bloke, had quite a chat with him... I too heard that from a couple of Europeans painters a couple of judges too


    Carl, probably there was, I also know of a few judges from around the world who were than happy top judge alongside basement members, yes I think the standard is high but thats nothing new to Euro and that standard comes from Geoff not from ANY judge in that room, also forgive but don't the judges judge in groups of three so each medal is agreed by three people not one?

    Robin
  5. carl reid A Fixture

    Country:
    England
    You may be right Robin, there may be judges happy but the overriding feeling was one of concern!

    You are right again about the judges, judge in groups of three. but it also depends on who is in the group, personality etc and whether they are steam rollered or not.

    It's clearly a problem that won't go away by playing it with a defensive bat!

    Carl
  6. Robin Active Member

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Carl, with the greatest respect you cannot say that the overriding feeling was concern, only of the judges you spoke too, you didn't speak to everyone..... as I cannot say that everyone was satisfied.

    It does depend who was in the group your right, thats what Geoffs there for, if I was being steamrollered and my opinion wasn't being taken into account, I would approach Geoff, and thats what those judges if they felt they were in that situation should have done, not with the greatest of respect moan in the pub/bar after they are not doing themselves/Euro/entrants any good.

    Robin
  7. carl reid A Fixture

    Country:
    England
    You may well be right Robin, but if you take out the basement judges it doesn't leave too many with that happy feeling of contentment.

    But I am not talking about painters with a gripe here, I'm talking about well respected judges of many years experience. That should count for something.

    It just seems strange that over the last couple of years we have all this unrest and seasoned judges are showing concern. How can that be ignored?
    These are folks who do a great job with no controversy.

    Why is that?
    It seems obvious to me

    Carl
  8. Robin Active Member

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    How many judges do you think there are from TB in there, half.......I think not.... there was over 50 judges last year 54 if memory and my counting from the sheet is correct, I could have counted someone twice.... Theres 6 judges from TB who are regularly active on the forum thats just about 10%, theres others but to be fair as mentioned before they are active elsewhere on other forums more than on TB, so I feel your blowing the problem up a little there.

    Also the two classes where I saw definite problems only one of those had a judge who is from the basement, I also heard from a number of people on the Sunday complaining about the same classes and had discussion with a number of judges about both...As I say I raised my points with the powers that be.

    Carl we can go round in circles with this shall we just agree that if asked we could both produce seasoned judges that are both for and against TB being in the room, it will save time typing, I can concede people were upset at certain standards of judging.

    Robin
  9. Tecumsea PlanetFigure Supporter

    Country:
    England
    Would it be useful for a list to be posted at Euro showing which judges judged which class/s?
    I'm not aware that anything like this exists and it would give modellers a point of reference if they wanted to discuss their entry with a Judge...as long as they don't get a..".well I thought yours was worth a medal but the other two judges disagreed with me" (I'm told it has happened!)
    Posting a list would indicate that the Euro judges are willing to discuss the merits of a modellers entry and in doing so help to raise the accountability of the judges.
    In Defence once again of the judges, knowing how long the judging takes at Euro I'm sure none of the awards are given lightly, however one class in particular this year I was told gave rise to concerns not only from modellers but also from fellow judges (I'm given to understand that no Basement members were involved in this class) One hopes that these concerns were passed on to Geoff who will of course decide if they are valid or not.
    There seems to be constant mention of the Basement, perhaps they are victims of their own high profile thereby inviting criticism, maybe a little envy, perhaps because they are a collective they are easy targets-nothing is perfect but from my point of view the active involvement of the Basement in the hobby has more positives than negatives, Figure World, Masterclasses, Euro Photography, mileage put into attending regional events, often putting on free demos can only be for the good and in the long term interests of the hobby.
  10. Robin Active Member

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Keith

    Thanks for that....

    Theres a list up on the wall matey of the judges in a couple of places or at leads there was for some of the time, but I agree it wouldn't hurt to publish it in the mag, or have it printed out so people could have a copy. For what it costs to be printed and the profit made a few hundred of those would not go amiss.

    I don't think any award is given lightly or not awarded lightly either Keith, yes it can happen that one judge can be out voted, thats why theres 3, but if I was the one, I would be asking the other two to "prove" to me why rather than just accepting it, they may see something you don't, another reason for 3 sets of eyes....

    Robin
    bobparker likes this.
  11. Briank Active Member

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    I still think it's a great show, mainly for the socilaising and will keep going as part of the BFFS and maybe TB (y)
    stu likes this.
  12. stu A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Brian,

    Spot on,,, it is a great show and I'm sure 2012 will be just as good as 2011.

    I for one with stormtroopers will be going out of my way to make it special as will all the manufacturers.

    No doubt Carl , Maurice, MAB, Laurent, Young, Ebroin and many many others will be frantically working there magic to bring us figures and busts that we all must have.

    In the competition the standard will no doubt be higher and the work on show breath taking, new techniques will be seen and may not be liked but they usually come good in the end.

    Euro though is more than that. Within sutch a small distance of the hall you get the biggest density of like minded modellers from the world over. It's fun with a capital F.

    I know sooo many people that would just love to be there and cant .

    We need to be thankfull that we can be there and enjoy all it brings. I hope this makes people want to come, you should

    Stuart
    carl reid likes this.
  13. Tecumsea PlanetFigure Supporter

    Country:
    England
    Well said Stuart, I have a friend coming all the way from Canada to visit the show and I know we are in for a great time.
  14. MCPWilk A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    I think it's a great show. I have been going for years and will continue to do so. For me it is a source of inspiration with the added bonus of having so many traders under one roof.

    I also went to Telford for the first time this year and was duly bowled over by the models and number of traders present (I took my wife along to stop me spending too much, and she spent more than me....!).

    Our hobby is about enjoying ourselves, winding down, improving our techniques, trying new media, researching our chosen period and whatever other pleasures it gives us. My only gripe is the ludicrous price of 90mm white metal figures from the continent, but that's another issue.

    Happy modelling, Merry Christmas and a Very Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year to all,

    Mike
    carl reid likes this.
  15. Ron Tamburrini A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Mike it is not just there 90mm stuff in the continent that is dear the bust are pricey too :(

    Ron
  16. Babelfish A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    I've been attending Euro since 1998 (on average roughly every other year) and if I had to pick one show it's probably still my favourite.

    It's shrunk in size a tad since when I first stared going (no overspill marquees on the prom now) but it's still a solid two days worth of show and I'll probably continue going as long as there's a Euro to go to.

    I don't compete or exhibit so I don't get involved in all the backstage politics of the event. I'm just a regular paying punter. That side of things doesn't really interest me, although I couldn't help but overhear some of the rumblings of discontent and discord that there have been these past few Euros, starting with the rather farcical handling of the photography issue in (I think) 2008 and more recently all that stuff about judging.

    It's a shame that these things have risen their ugly head, along with Euro becoming (I feel anyway) somewhat more commercialised than it used to be. Maybe that's an inevitable sign of the times, i.e. once a niche event (or whatever) grows and becomes more popular and develops a certain reputation as a "status" event, commercial interests take over, the guys in suits & ties move in with their business plans and it becomes first and foremost a business venture, and something of the original spirit behind it is lost. That's a shame and we must hope that the movers & shakers don't go on too much of a money grab as that will for sure put off traders and punters alike. The organisers will lose out along with the rest of us and it would be a massive own goal.

    But it still remains a fine show in a great location and with a lovely international atmosphere, and this year I thoroughly enjoyed meeting fellow planeteers face to face for the first time and socialising with a great bunch of kindred spirits. So roll on Euro 2012!

    - Steve
    carl reid likes this.
  17. carl reid A Fixture

    Country:
    England
    Don't get me wrong I'm not here trying to pistol whip The Basement, which it may appear I'm trying to do.
    I have plenty of friends on TB. On the whole they do a great job tavelling around the country putting on shows, they're masterclasses etc. But the overriding ethos of the forum is one of negativity IMO. They pride themselves on critiqing pieces rather than point out the positives. The saying goes more stick than carrot.
    Now if they are bringing that to the comp room at EM, you can see why they are being labbelled.
    It only takes a couple of contentious decissions and the seed is sewn. In the same way they like to pride themselves on ctritiquing, they should be able to take the critique on the chin.
    I not tarring all the members with same brush, and if they think that, then I apologise.

    I'm just passionate about the hobby and the show.
    It a fabulous show. For the me the best show in the world and I will do all I can to promote it.

    I'm sure 2012 will be just as great as it always is. To me it's best weekend of the year. Yes it's lucrative for me as a trader. But it's more than that, it's about the memories of laughing until your belly hurts, the warm embrasses of good friends on Friday afternoon and the emotional goodbyes on the Monday morning, your head full of inspiration on the journey home, wishing the the next 12 months could disappear in heart beat. Thats what Euro Militaire means to me.

    So until next September I'll just have to drum my fingers impatiently wait. :)

    Carl
    stu and pmfs like this.
  18. stu A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Carl so true my friend.

    Remember you me and pete avin a laugh and pete sayin you was a indian. Big chief carl and his squaw from brum. I must admit I have never laughed so much, it hurt.

    Till next year

    Stu
    carl reid likes this.
  19. carl reid A Fixture

    Country:
    England
    Big chief Carl and mans voice his trusty Squaw...:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

    Carl
  20. Tommi A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    I have been attending the show since the second year it started missing a few years in between to bring up a family. I was also a trader at the show for several years selling my own range of figures.


    I remember standing in the queue as a punter and waiting in anticipation to get into the hall and see what all the new offerings were from Pegaso, Andrea, Beneito and many others. The hall was always full in the early days and it was impossible to move or get near some of the trade stands at most times. The show was so big at one point that there was trader marquees along the promenade and even one year a hotel opposite hosted a part of the show to cover additional traders attending.


    I have noticed as have many others the decline in people attending the show as well as some well-known traders that no longer attend. Questions have always been asked why this is but no one ever seems to have got to the real truth of the matter whatever that may be! I guess this could be down to finances and the continuing grumblings over the controversial judging most years, maybe?


    I must say for me that this is the most enjoyable weekend of the year and although there are grumblings of being an expensive weekend its worth every penny to me. I have met many people and made many friends through the show; get to put faces to names especially all the wonderful and talented sculptors and painters that fly in from all over the world and drive the long journeys to attend. It’s a chance to eat, drink and overload on figure painting and sculpting among good friends and likeminded people. My wife has also started to attend the show with me the past few years and she enjoys the social aspect of it all and gets to meet all the people that I associate with, she has also made several new friends along the way.


    I hope that the show continues for many years to come and that any issues that people have with the show or judging can be bought out into the open and dealt with in a sensible and constructive way by the organizers of the show. I will always do my best if only a small part, to support and promote the show to the best of my abilities either via the Planet Figure forum, word of mouth or at the show itself.


    Looking forward to September 2012, and well done to all the people involved in hosting this great show every year. Long may it continue, we need it.



    Tommi
    carl reid and stu like this.

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