Euro 2012 The truth

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Pardon this interuption from someone who has never attended a Euro Show before.

I have read (long before there was a pF) about the judging and results that have occured there for years. I admit, the masses are speaking MUCH louder in recent years. Never having attended, it's hard for me to understand as I can only think of and compare Euro to Stateside shows.

Yes, there are complaints reference judging here as well (there will ALWAYS be complaints!) but I understand the judging system here better due to us "Yanks" using the Open System (pioneered by Shep Paine). I have never seen, nor do I understand the judging system used at Euro.

What is it? :(

Jim Patrick
 
Jim Patrick said:
Pardon this interuption from someone who has never attended a Euro Show before.

I have read (long before there was a pF) about the judging and results that have occured there for years. I admit, the masses are speaking MUCH louder in recent years. Never having attended, it's hard for me to understand as I can only think of and compare Euro to Stateside shows.

Yes, there are complaints reference judging here as well (there will ALWAYS be complaints!) but I understand the judging system here better due to us "Yanks" using the Open System (pioneered by Shep Paine). I have never seen, nor do I understand the judging system used at Euro.

What is it? :(

Jim Patrick
Click to expand...

Hi Jim

Just exactly what did the indomitable Shep Pain Pioneer as I among many others have great respect for his work.
 
Just a foot note about my 2011 Euro experience which began in Central railway station Glasgow when a chap unknown to me bar name sat beside me and proclaimed i suppose you are Ronnie, my first meeting with Don, and look forward to many more, that makes euro so special.

Ron
 
I always liked Euro. Three years ago i thought i never go again. But i hate myself when i saw all the pictures from the show.
Stu you asked what i would see changed.....I hate the competetors room closed for judging. Why????? In Antwerp we don't do that. It isn't necessary. I don't compete in EM but when i go to the show ( in the basement) , guys are coming in with figures. At two o clock it is finished. When you have walk around for several times there are still figures that you havent see. At two o clock the show for the spectators is over. If you been there for one day, what have you seen for your money'????
That's why I whas this and last year on sunday. Well, you see more from the figures then on saturday. And they are all there.

Keith: The system in Antwerp is simpel. I'll try to explain..We have three classes. Novice, Advanced and Master. Beside that we have a Fantasy and Open Class (convert or scratch).
When somebody have a gold in a class you must attend the next year on a higher class. For the novice it's sometimes a hard day when they see a new guy coming in with masterly painted figures. Well he can compete into the novice class. The jury. can always put the figure in a higher class. But that should always be done with the Chief of the jury.
Maybe EM can do this to, the challenge is then to go on a higher class with your gold. I don't think i ever compete against masters like Danilo Cartacci, Jesus Chamarra, Mike Blank etc.
And yes competing is more important then winning. But when you know that you gonna have nothing before you start, is there a challenge????
For myself: i paint to make my head empty after a day work into the hospital, not for a jury.

I'm painting now 7 years, never won a medal in Antwerp, but i consider myself as advanced.....after all.. 7 years is not novice in my opinion. The fact that I cannot paint is something else:sick:.

Maybe everything what i wrote isn't to the point of the thread..but there are things that i love to see changed.
 
megroot said:
I always liked Euro. Three years ago i thought i never go again. But i hate myself when i saw all the pictures from the show.
Stu you asked what i would see changed.....I hate the competetors room closed for judging. Why????? In Antwerp we don't do that. It isn't necessary. I don't compete in EM but when i go to the show ( in the basement) , guys are coming in with figures. At two o clock it is finished. When you have walk around for several times there are still figures that you havent see. At two o clock the show for the spectators is over. If you been there for one day, what have you seen for your money'????
That's why I whas this and last year on sunday. Well, you see more from the figures then on saturday. And they are all there.

Keith: The system in Antwerp is simpel. I'll try to explain..We have three classes. Novice, Advanced and Master. Beside that we have a Fantasy and Open Class (convert or scratch).
When somebody have a gold in a class you must attend the next year on a higher class. For the novice it's sometimes a hard day when they see a new guy coming in with masterly painted figures. Well he can compete into the novice class. The jury. can always put the figure in a higher class. But that should always be done with the Chief of the jury.
Maybe EM can do this to, the challenge is then to go on a higher class with your gold. I don't think i ever compete against masters like Danilo Cartacci, Jesus Chamarra, Mike Blank etc.
And yes competing is more important then winning. But when you know that you gonna have nothing before you start, is there a challenge????
For myself: i paint to make my head empty after a day work into the hospital, not for a jury.

I'm painting now 7 years, never won a medal in Antwerp, but i consider myself as advanced.....after all.. 7 years is not novice in my opinion. The fact that I cannot paint is something else:sick:.

Maybe everything what i wrote isn't to the point of the thread..but there are things that i love to see changed.
Click to expand...
Some valid points marc
 
Ron Tamburrini said:
Hi Jim

Just exactly what did the indomitable Shep Pain Pioneer as I among many others have great respect for his work.
Click to expand...

Have a look at the MMSI (Chicago Club) website. I'm not saying Shep "invented" the open system (he very well may have, I just don't know), but it is a system of judging which he has championed through the years and the system used almost all the time (if not all the time?) at figure shows here in the States.

Just click on the the "Open System" tab...

http://mmsichicago.com/

Jim Patrick
 
Jim Patrick said:
Have a look at the MMSI (Chicago Club) website. I'm not saying Shep "invented" the open system (he very well may have, I just don't know), but it is a system of judging which he has championed through the years and the system used almost all the time (if not all the time?) at figure shows here in the States.

Just click on the the "Open System" tab...

http://mmsichicago.com/

Jim Patrick
Click to expand...

Thank you Jim for a most interesting link altogether

cheers Ron(y)
 
I have to agree with Stu and Kieth, I do think medal winners should judge, with a majority being gold medal winners. After all we are talking about arguably the best show in the world.

I'm not sure the system is at fault. After all it's been working fine for many years. I think it's more about some personel.

Carl
 
Tecumsea said:
One way for Euro to overcome some of the problems might be to adopt the european method of judging where figures are entered into 3 categories, Master, Intermediate and novice-perhaps Marc might like to comment on this?
I attended the White Rose club event in Leeds last weekend-on display was a superb array of Figures, Busts. Looking at the quality it crossed my mind that I would hate to judge at an event like Euro where the overall standard is at International level.
It seems unfair to criticise the judges for what is a thankless task, if there are serious issues then they should be aired with the chief judge.
There appears to be a tendency among modellers to bitch about the results rather than having the bottle to single out the judge and ask why his or her model was marked down.This has the added effect of improving the judging standards if they have to stand by their decisions. I discussed a bust (Not Mine) with a judge and was given a perfectly rational reason for the bust not being awarded a medal.
Euro is still the best UK show (sorry Nap but Bath doesn't come close) but like Ron I can remember the early days, of course it was different....there was no internet, on line sales, forums etc. You arrived full of excitement wondering what the new releases were going to be and most manufacturers were there....the world has changed and it
is important to recognise those changes and except that things are not what they were, but the weekend is still there to be enjoyed
Click to expand...

Hi Keith, we have discussed this many times I know, its always gonna be a hard one to satisfy everybody, I am sure this will go on and on....:)
I agree with you, I have to say that I have always been around to answer questions on a piece I have judged, because of one thing, if you can’t give an opinion to the person who’s piece you have judged, how can you have judged it. I think you have asked me before as well.... and you are right thankless it is sometimes, but I get to look at many of the great pieces out on the tables, up close and personal.


Generally
I would like to just say, I have enjoyed Judging at euro now for 5 years, I was asked to join the judging team in 2004, but I turned Geoff down as I didn’t feel I was worthy of judging some of the creations that were being placed on the tables, when I hadn’t won a Gold, until that happened, I felt my abilities were not of a sufficient standard to be able to give the right judgement. Thankfully that happened and I now judge and I am proud to do it.

I push myself to eliminate in my mind when judging, the preference factor (what period, style, painter I enjoy looking at the most), this can unfortunately override a good piece of judging. This I fear may have raised its ugly head in a few cases at this years Euro. Euro is not alone it happens at every show like this.

I look at the piece for what it is, and judge on each pieces merits following the rules set down by the chief judge. I judge what I feel is the best way to give the best result.

But just to clarify something, Each figure in each class is looked at, by each judge, judging that class, we do our best not to overlook any piece. Each class has multiple Gold, Silver, Bronze, Highly commended and Commended medals given.

Every Judging system has its good and bad bits, if we had a perfect judging system ..... well that would be perfect. I’m not sure that everybody would agree with it though .........
 
Thought i may as well join in on this contraversial subject.I've judged a couple of times in the past at Euro and found it quite staight forward,but it's a very different ball game now as there is a clash of style of painting thats emerged over the last few years, which makes judging in my opinion so much harder.There's artistic ,and there is realism, and then there's the the intricate and highly detailed figures which blow you away but the face is sometimes not up to standard.They all have there merits.My style of painting has always been realism as i can't paint any other way and in the last 2 years highly commendeds and commendeds have been my best effort.Although down on the results of previous years when i was up there in the Gold,silver and bronzes i know myself that i'm not painting as well as i could, so i'm never dissapointed with what award i get as i usually know before i enter, by judging my own figures.

There has been a fair amount of disquiet among many fellow painters of an inner clique emerging over the last couple of years of certain members from "the basement" having a bit of clout at Euro, although if this has any effect on judging i personnally have had no problems.I'm just stating what i've heard from other punters.This is not personnal but it has to be said as there are many that perceive this as fact and as usual i've jumped out of the trench first.Just hope when i look back there's somebody with me.

Back to judging.If somebody thinks their figure has been judged badly then it should be brought to the attention of the chief judge or forever hold his peace.Simple as that (no point in flinging things out your pram) and it holds judges to be accountable for their decisions.Theres no doubt in my mind that judging has become more difficult due to more different styles now used.
My rant is over as i'm going back to painting a figure in peace and tranquility.
Brian
 
I wondered when The Basements name would come up......

Clout at Euro, this is really quite extraordinary why anyone can think that, why would any of us have any clout over a company that runs Euro, yes we do have a few members that are judges, but so does PF, timelines and any number of other forums. In fact possibly the same people. Brian you yourself are a member of TB.

Could it be the number of TB shirts in the room I ask myself...then I think it can't be that because theres a number of Malta shirts too, wait could they be another clique with influence or are they just another group of mates proud of their affiliation and try to do the best they can for a hobby they take part in....

Our members help out at Euro, yes, but thats down more as a meet early and get more time together and have a chat and the fun of being with mates you see very little of....

Clout....**chuckles to himself.........Clout..... ***saunters off


Robin
 
Going back to Dons OP ....

I saw that several truly remarkable pieces were utterly ignored while several pedestrian offerings were given medals.

The Judging Team need to present a professional and consistent method of grading pieces if they are to have any credibility at an international level...

The show itself while being a bit pricey ( it is held in the UK after all ;) ) is a lot of fun and I really enjoy meeting such a broad mix of people.

I am a Noob at Euro so feel free to dismiss my noobish ignorance ;)


As an aside .... Much admiration for anyone who judges at competitions ... I wouldn't want to do it and frankly I don't think I would be any good ....





:)
 
gordy said:
Why would you think that ? Am I missing a precedent o_O
Click to expand...

Gordy, I think there's a lot of "behind the scenes" things us Yanks are missing because we have never been to Euro. I know I am anyway! :(

Regardless, back to my original post....

What system of judging is used at Euro? Is there a set way of judging entries?

Jim Patrick
 
Hi Gordy

No precedent as such, there was talk after Euro and The Basements name came up quite a lot with in it.

Like the Clout remark that Brian mentioned because some of our members work at different shows etc, people think we have influence and use it sometimes in a less than ethical way, which is not true.

So I am not surprised and slightly expected the forums name to come up.

Robs right, the judges don't score the guidelines are just for that a guide for them to see how the chief judge wants the class they are assigned to judged.

Very helpful they are too.

Robin
 
Robin
'I wondered when The Basements name would come up......'
I wonder why you expected this? as in my previous post on this thread I did hear complaints about judging and indeed in one or two cases about specific judges and their preferences. These related to style, very much the point Brian raised, at no point did I hear any reference to the Basement members who were judging, as a collective with dark designs.
Cheers
Derek
 
Del,

As in my reply to Gordy, when I said that our name was linked to more than a little talk about Euro so I am not surprised our name came up, infact its been mentioned to more than one of our members, the chatter that is.

Robin
 
I dont think it was a little talk at all from what I heard.

The difference this year seams to be that its some judges and the way they judged that was the problem, not painters bemoaning there lack of awards.

I've never seen people so angry.

The basic point is this, if this is happening then it discredits the comp and the show overall, the comp was down this year, as said before world expo and the recession are probable causes. Euro prides itself on being the creme de la creme, the top prize, dont know how this happened but it appears that way.

If this is no more because of this years comp then thats sad and probably why were having this discussion.

I'd like to thank the judges that have responded for your input, its a thankless job so thank you for your insight.

Stuart
 
Quote-There has been a fair amount of disquiet among many fellow painters of an inner clique emerging over the last couple of years of certain members from "the basement" having a bit of clout at Euro, although if this has any effect on judging i personnally have had no problems.I'm just stating what i've heard from other punters.This is not personnal but it has to be said as there are many that perceive this as fact and as usual i've jumped out of the trench first.Just hope when i look back there's somebody there.-Unquote

Hi Robin
I never was of the opinion that the basement was taking over Euro as you infer.The "many fellow painters" and " certain members" must be read in context and has nothing to do with the wearing of T shirts.The disquiet was about the judging although as stated i haven't personally have had any problems in that department.
If, as you stated you "wondered when the basement name would come up", you must have had previous knowledge of this matter.I am a member of the basement as i log on, on occasion, to check out figure reviews as i do on PF and Timelines which brings me back to " certain members".
Ever felt like Robinson Crusoe?
Best regards.
Brian
 

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