Euro 2012 The truth

[Don]

Well its been a while since Euro and we all have had time to return home and ponder over what really happened to what was the best show in the world.
Dont know about other Planeteers but I was rather shocked at some events I noticed and overheard.
Firstly I was surprised at the number of well known and well respected companies who stayed away. They stayed away from this large market because of the price of Renting tables. We know who they are and I'm afraid a lot of them will never come back as other shows have overtaken Euro for them. Was talking to a manufacturer on saturday and he was able to visit two shows in Europe for the price of two days at Euro. I also notice more and more figure/armour modellers are now going to Telford which seems to attract more figure painters and manufacturers. Is it not time prices are reduced for traders as without them there is no show and the fact they are not attending Euro must mean something, look at Trucks and Tracks, I believe its been cancelled again so someone should listen to the traders.
My biggest problem was not with the prices but with the judging! I am not attacking anyone as I have friends who were and are judges, it was the overall standard of the judging that I would call into doubt.
I saw some amazing painted figures and sculpts being swept aside by the judges and some awful figures being given awards they just did not deserve. I have no problem with, as usually happens, the odd figure being missed (in my opinion) but this year it seemed to be rampant.
Figures and new sculpts were swept aside willynilly for some reason, I would hate to say it was because they did not like the sculptor or the painter or even the company the figures were for. It certainly felt and seemed that way in my eyes.
I have no doubts in my mind that some will argue about this, which would be good, and I hasten to add the figures that were awarded were worth their medals. No, my problem is with the number of high quality figures that were "overlooked", perhaps by judges with limited experience, I dont know.
I do know that if the standard is not raised then like the traders the punters will go elsewhere. I know around six guys who no longer visit the show or just visit now and again, how can we get them back.
End of my rant!

Don

 

[housecarl]

To me it felt as though everyone was trying to bleed the last penny out of pockets. As for judging, you will always get the controversy. I didn't win anything, because I'm not and never will be good enough. This was only my second show, now coupled with the distance and expense, not an experience I'll be repeating.
Carl.

 

[Don]

Carl, In my post I did mention that I had no problem with the awards given but was amazed at the figures that were "overlooked". I know you will always get judging problems but that wasnt my point, it had the horrible feeling that it was orchestrated. That was the worst part and the major problem is that the people it happened to, cant really come on here and complain.
Been to Euro many times, well into the double figures, and this was to my mind the worst I had seen. Most of the judges are great at what they are doing and I have never really mentioned it before but I felt this year was different for the reasons I have mentioned before.
You are actually one of the people I was talking about in that you have been a few times but dont think you will be back due to expense. I do believe you went to Telford, did you feel you were being ripped off there or was it a Euro thing?
As you know we travel a bit further than you do, but tend to make a weekend of it and enjoy the whole deal. Think though of the small trader who uses it as part of his advertising in a meet the public sort of way. Take your costs and add quite a few hundreds of pounds for a small table which you may never get back. Thats a reason not to return.
I remember Euro when apart from the Leascliffe, there were two large tents full of traders outside. What happened to all those traders and visitors.

Don

 

[housecarl]

I think the days when shows were there for people to meet, chat and pick up a bargain have long gone. Everything about Euro to me was money orientated, they wanted £4.50 for a poxy badge. They could stick that, this must be my hidden Scottishness coming out. Telford was the same, pay to park, admission and to add insult to injury £9+ for some crap food. I don't know about table prices there, but there was an abundance of traders, covering every aspect of the hobby. I think the location is much better for UK based punters too. I understand why Folkestone is the venue for Euro, bit of a clue in the title.
I could put this down to a mid life crisis, but I don't like to feel I'm being bled.
Carl.

 

[DEL]

Don
Pretty much agree with everything you say. As you know a number of Internationally reknowned painters raised the same issues over dinner and drinks, particularly the matter of judging.
Carls points regarding expense is equally valid. I have to say that without discounted rail tickets I would certainly consider continental euro shows. I've been to Herzog von Bayern a number of times and reckon I could do this show + another for what would be the full EM cost without the travel savings.
I should say that Euro weekend is one of the social highlights of my year so if I was to switch allegiance you lot would just have to come too.
Cheers
Derek

 

[Don]

Derek, David and I were looking to do at least one of the German shows next year, but if you are inviting us to join you, does that mean you pay?
I know that a lot of guys were very unhappy with last years judging thats why I came out of the woodwork and posted as I know a few people who just cant (you know them as well).
As you know some of us have been going for years and its our show but then its everyones show but if its not changed for the better it will become noones show. You yourself could see the big change on sunday when you were able to walk around freely. Gone are the days when the crowds were so thick you couldnt breath till sunday night.

Carl, never been good enough for medals mate but my clame to fame is that I once got the same award as one of the worlds finest painters. We both got nothing that year, but I know why I got nothing, dont suppose he ever found out.

Don,

Don

 

[megroot]

Come on guys,
In March in Antwerp we have the AMSS show......Enjoy the good food and drinks.
The Basement is coming again and they will talk you in.
We don't close the competitors room when the judging is busy.

Marc

 

[Blind Pew]

Boys, as an independent I can tell you this. Marc is right.

Antwerp is sooo good, once you've been you may not go to Euro again.

It has everything Euro lacks, and the competition is superb. So much friendlier as an experience. And as well, it doesn't cost that much more to go.

Put it this way, for many UK modellers, Euro is the only truly major show they able to attend. I understand this, as nothing's cheap anymore.

But having gone to a couple of other major shows, it opened my eyes to what Euro actually is. It's a trade fair with a competition downstairs. People who know me have heard me say this before. It's a rip off from start to finish. If things don't change it will eat itself.

Can I offer an alternative? That's the real crunch. Perhaps what The Basement blokes are trying to do is as step in the right direction.

 

[Nap]

Hi Guys,
This is an interesting post , Euro was considerd to be te pinnacle of the show year in the UK , however I do not feel it is improving , for me it seems to be far too expensive , the location I think could be a better one .......

EM is I feel resting on its laurels from the past , yes there are lots of great models there , but it seems to be more a trade show now .

You will always get comments about judging ..its inevitable ....the main concern I gree is expense as Del said , 2 continental shows for the cost of EM !!!

Folk that I have spoken too were dissapointed with 2011 and probably previous ones but no one has said .

Like Marc has said Antwerp is a great show and from what I have seen exceeds EM by miles ..on all counts ............there is of course in the UK also BUGLE CALL in Bath in November in the South ..primarily a figure show, and I know there are great shows farther upthe country.

Both Antwerp and Bugle Call are supported by guys from The Basement ..and supported with pleasure.

Nap

 

[carl reid]

Hi Guys,

I totally agree with Don!

For me Euro is a very special combination of things that is rarely found, world class competition, great trade show and a wonderful social occassion, where everyone is staying within a stones throw of the venue. This enables folks to mingle in the evenings. As I said a rare combination.
This is a classic case of if it disappears it will be sadly missed by ALL who attend of have attended.

As for the judging there appeared to a number of incidents that took place in September that left a number of the experienced judges questioning the entire process and indeed the competition itself.
In fact at least two said they would never come back until changes are made. Now that can not be a good situation.
I understand it not a running race and first past the post wins, it's a game of opinions etc and that controversy is evident in all competition rooms the world over, but when controversy becomes orchestrated it spells the end.

As for the trade, Euro is a special event. The traders spend the entire summer creating product to sell that weekend. The late nights, the weekends, the financial investment just the shear effort are not on show just the results of it. This goes totally unnoticed.
I have however noticed over the last few years a them and us situation being gradually created. Thats not just at Euro but in general.

Now the social occassion is fantastic, to meet the folks you may only see once a year. Or to meet people you have never met before. For example Sang-Eon Lee and Man Jin Kim attended this Euro, they flew half way around the world just to attend what is the event know as Euro Militaire. Very few shows can boast that kind of draw, and they are not the only ones many have made similar journeys in the past.

That to me spells a show dripping with kudos that should not be erroded lightly.

The only thing now for me to say is I will attend Euro as long as there is one.

Carl

 

[pmfs]

Hi!

For me the important thing in a show is the participation and meet other great guys from the hobby and pass a good time talking and drinking some beers.:lol:
I think the judges has a very hard task in every shows around, everybody wants something, a recognizing, it is normal, but does not always happen and there are surely many injustices and will continued to exist, but for me as a figure painter my goal is to participate and socialize with all of you guys.
If we want to grow as figure painters we have to compete with the best.
I have my flight and hotel booked for next Euro 2012.

 

[custer760]

I for one totally agree with my mate Carl here,
We (Frank Konetzke of Frank Miniatures and myself)have been travelling over from Germany now since 1990 and the main reason is to see great friends whom we unfortunately only get to meet once a year at Euro-Militaire.It is a very very expensive time for us, as Frank pays for 2 trade-tables plus we have travelling fees and hotel bills to pay (not to think of the beer money !!) All in all as I said before the thing I most look forward to is the socializing and of course you get to see some great figures in the competition,although I have seen most of them already at other shows in Europe.
Euro-Militaire is a very expensive show for a trader and I know for certain that not all of the traders come out of there on Sunday with money in their pockets,meaning,they have not sold enough products to pay their costs.The organizers should either cut the costs for the traders or make the show free for visitors so at least they would have more money to spend on their hobby.
As far as judging is concerned,there was some disagreements going on about a group of judges favouring their own products and members and of course giving them the medals !!! Now if this is true then it should be investigated and stopped,otherwise the whole aspect of Euro-Militaire being the best show in the world is gone.
I will also attend as long as my friends are still going because as I said before....Thats the main reason for being there on my part.
Regards
Pete

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

Hi Guys

Firstly great chieftain of the pudin race who the hell rattled your cage:lol:

Joking aside this was my first EM since about 1986 and I thoroughly enjoyed every moment, traveled with good company and met a lot of good guys as well
and missed some whom I would have liked to have met, "never won anything and didn't deserve too." I am not privy to the inner circle at this gathering so missed all
the hoo ha and ranting of certain people, but the fallout did drift into our wonderfully cheap accommodation. Re food and drink well it is dear everywhere " see what you get in Rome for a tenner"perhaps the bums rush"
I am sure the numbers are down but we are in the middle of a prolonged recession and cash is tight all round. Regards the hobby in general,I was in almost at the start when about the only thing available was Napoleonic from Historex and only the bolt upright figures too, which bread a wonderful array
of converters and probably brings us to where we are today, we are truly spoiled for choice these days.
Perhaps some of the failings are if the little guys have got to compete against the big guns whom of which some are professional, they will get despondent and not return.
We saw a best of show won by a duo, it would be nice if we all could pair up with a sculptor and paint something totally new on the market that no one else has or seen, reminds me of the days of the Russion collectives, perhaps we should adopt an airport policy " did you pack your own bags sir"

Ron from the outside looking inn

PS looking forward to next year and the late nights

 

[stu]

Hi,

As carl and peter have already mentioned Euro is about having Fun, laughing till it hurts, drinkin and eating more than the misses would let you.

Euro for me though is also a trade event. Yes its expensive it always has been. I've been every year bar the first one as a punter and a trader and its never cheap !!!, but what price can you put on the sheer enjoyement of the show and all that goes on.

Euro does seam to have got in a rut !, but I firmly believe Charles Davies will change this. I hope he can read all of these replies, I think he should.

Euro as a show exists and draws people from all over the world because it runs a top trade show alongside a top competition. The two work in tandem. If one or the other is lacking then it doesnt work.

The 25th anniversary show was superb. It was bizzy on both fronts trade and comp. This year was different, probably in part to world expo and the recession. This year however all I seamed to hear was problems coming from the competition room and the judging. Some pretty stern words were said and people were saying they wouldnt be coming back.

This cant be good for the show. I think the judges that were there and members of this forum need to come out and tell us what was wrong because otherwise its all talk and nothing more.

If the competition becomes weakened and its integrity marred then people wont travel, this then weakens the trade and the show dies. I think that would be a sad loss as there is no other show like it.

I would miss meeting so many people and never be able to barter with me old mate Don, now that would be bad.

I for one will continue to go, to have fun both inside and outside the hall and to enjoy meeting everybody that comes to my humble stall for a drink and some nibbles and for some northern hospitality, whether you buy or not.

Long may it continue

Stuart

 

[Ron Tamburrini]

Hi,

As carl and peter have already mentioned Euro is about having Fun, laughing till it hurts, drinkin and eating more than the misses would let you.

Euro for me though is also a trade event. Yes its expensive it always has been. I've been every year bar the first one as a punter and a trader and its never cheap !!!, but what price can you put on the sheer enjoyement of the show and all that goes on.

Euro does seam to have got in a rut !, but I firmly believe Charles Davies will change this. I hope he can read all of these replies, I think he should.

Euro as a show exists and draws people from all over the world because it runs a top trade show alongside a top competition. The two work in tandem. If one or the other is lacking then it doesnt work.

The 25th anniversary show was superb. It was bizzy on both fronts trade and comp. This year was different, probably in part to world expo and the recession. This year however all I seamed to hear was problems coming from the competition room and the judging. Some pretty stern words were said and people were saying they wouldnt be coming back.

This cant be good for the show. I think the judges that were there and members of this forum need to come out and tell us what was wrong because otherwise its all talk and nothing more.

If the competition becomes weakened and its integrity marred then people wont travel, this then weakens the trade and the show dies. I think that would be a sad loss as there is no other show like it.

I would miss meeting so many people and never be able to barter with me old mate Don, now that would be bad.

I for one will continue to go, to have fun both inside and outside the hall and to enjoy meeting everybody that comes to my humble stall for a drink and some nibbles and for some northern hospitality, whether you buy or not.

Long may it continue

Stuart

Well Put Stu

Ron. Who you shall also have to barter along side Don whom I shall have to prop when you ply him with too much of the amber necter.

Looking forward to next year and hope you redo that hussar well before then

 

[Don]

Gentlemen the post was not about promoting other shows despite what you think, it was actually about making OUR Euro better.
I agree with the traders who have posted with very honest points, Euro for Traders is very expensive, but without traders there is no show. The same for the judging, this year it was awful, again more a problem with the figures who did not deserve what, not only I but most of the modellers think, they received. Upset the people who compete and the numbers drop despite what others seem to think. Take away the competition entrants the traders suffer, take away the traders and the punters suffer, and in that, the show suffers.
These are things that can and must be rectified or as most people seem to think we will lose what is to me the best show in the world bar none.
Do we really want that?
Liike Pete said and he is not alone in this, it seemed a group of judges just awarded their friends and avoided the other equally as good if not better entries that were on show. Can we as modellers afford to lose a show as renown ar Euro, I think not.

Don

 

[Don]

Stu, like you I will continue to go as long as I am able or the show holds out.
Dont worry mate I am shoving all my spare money in my piggy bank just for my selected traders. Already I have nearly a pound so there will be no holding me back on the big day. Two more children to sell and I can afford the show.
A tiny point about your hospitality, always freely given and gratefully received, next year dont let Gary hand it out. He always seemed to offer me a glass BEFORE I made my choice of figures,,,,,dont understand that.
Did you notice a sort of begging note from Ronnie, We told him before the show started to come with us to your famous stand. Not to go wandering off on his own like a three year old, but would he listen!

Looking forward already.

Don

 

[stu]

Ron,

I look forward to the the challenge laid down by yourself and don to do bartering battle and the hussar is coming !!!

Don,

It is obvious that you love this show and you should be applauded for bringing this up. Again , I would like to see the judges come forward and tell us what the problem is. On another forum this discussion was blocked even before it got going !!!!.

What does everybody on the planet want to see happen at euro. You can post it here or pm me then I can forward this on to those that need to see it.

For me i would like to see more of the top painters coming over like they used too. Maybe the organizers should pay for them to be there and give a discussion or help station maybe, I dont know. The fact is if they come others follow.

I also feel the judges should be of gold medal standing or how else can they judge. Surely you need to be consistantly good and at the top of your hobby to be a judge. That is what happens in other hobbies and professions.

Feel free to comment

Stu

 

[Tecumsea]

Hi Stu, I agree totally with your comment about Judges, I fail to see how a modest painter can be a really good judge, however looking at the picture of the euro judging team most of them are gold medal winners!?
Judging in an arena is a nightmare, I have some friends who show dogs, exactly the same controversy exists, why, because to some this is not an amateur hobby. Many modellers sell their creations so gold medals are financially important, for traders a gold winning piece of box art means more free publicity in magazine show reports and potentially enhanced sales of the kit, etc, etc.
One way for Euro to overcome some of the problems might be to adopt the european method of judging where figures are entered into 3 categories, Master, Intermediate and novice-perhaps Marc might like to comment on this?
I attended the White Rose club event in Leeds last weekend-on display was a superb array of Figures, Busts. Looking at the quality it crossed my mind that I would hate to judge at an event like Euro where the overall standard is at International level.
It seems unfair to criticise the judges for what is a thankless task, if there are serious issues then they should be aired with the chief judge.
There appears to be a tendency among modellers to bitch about the results rather than having the bottle to single out the judge and ask why his or her model was marked down.This has the added effect of improving the judging standards if they have to stand by their decisions. I discussed a bust (Not Mine) with a judge and was given a perfectly rational reason for the bust not being awarded a medal.
Euro is still the best UK show (sorry Nap but Bath doesn't come close) but like Ron I can remember the early days, of course it was different....there was no internet, on line sales, forums etc. You arrived full of excitement wondering what the new releases were going to be and most manufacturers were there....the world has changed and it
is important to recognise those changes and except that things are not what they were, but the weekend is still there to be enjoyed

 

[DEL]

Stu
"I look forward to the the challenge laid down by yourself and don to do bartering battle"
No need to wait 'til September I'll stick them both on ebay and have them with you by christmas.
D.