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Enamel varnish over oils?

Discussion in 'Oils' started by Dolf, Dec 30, 2018.

  1. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal
    Thanks a lot once again, Mike, really appreciate your help (y)


    "Just had another thought.... you've obviously had lots of advice about what make of oil paint to use."

    Yes, folks have been quite patient and very helpful with a novice like me on this matter :)


    "One of the things you should consider is the translucency of the colours you select. Some are very transparent which can
    make life a bit tedious when using them on figures. Winsor and Newton are extremely useful for this because
    all the information you'll likely to need appears on the tube's label - transparency/opacity, permanence, colour
    reference identity, so forth."


    So far I only have oils from 3 different brands, Rive Gauche, as previously mentioned, and also a couple from Van Gogh and also a couple from Lefranc & Bourgeois.
    All these 3 do have some kind of info on the tubes, concerning translucency (transparent, opaque, or semi), but I'm not sure about all the other points you mention regarding Winsor & Newton (maybe I still need to learn how to read all this info on my tubes :facepalm: ) . I know that apart from the transparency or opacity info (usually squares, all in black, or half black and half white), there's some other info, such as + or * symbols, and numbers, but so far I don't know yet the meaning... Will have to check that out I guess. As you rightly say "Reading the label first can save you time and money and produce better results.", so to be able to correctly read and understand the info on the tubes seem to be a must ;)



    One thing I noticed, while checking for some of the colors our former fellow member Eddy Vandersteen mentions using for example on this SBS published on El Greco website (here: https://www.elgrecominiatures.co.uk/pages/thracian-peltast ), is that not all brands have the exact same list of colors available on their charts.
    For instance, I was looking for "Brown Madder", and so far could only find it produced by W & N. Same with other colors and other brands.

    Interesting learning process anyway, especially for an "old guy" (just turned 63 yesterday) who has been a modeler for a long time but who is only now starting to learn about oils. As I say, the day we stop learning (anything, no matter what, as long as it keeps our brain cells working, and keeps us motivated) ... we are dead (even if not physically dead) ... I'm not there yet :D



    Cheers!


    Dolf
  2. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal
    Thanks for the input Ron (y)


    "I am gathering you are very new to oils or you would not be asking the question"


    Yes indeed, totally new! A real beginner!

    Despite having been a modeler for many years now (the usual kits, aircraft, cars, ships, some 1/35 figures on dioramas, etc), I only used enamels for that (and a very occasional oil, mainly Burnt Sienna and/or Ray Umber, for a couple of Verlinden 120mm figures I painted in the distant past, painted with Humbrol enamels, the mentioned oils only for the leather parts), so only discovering oils now as I'm yet to paint my first bust! Already bought a few, but haven't started them yet (well apart from that La Meridiana Apache Lipan, that I've already primed with Mr Primer Surfacer, it might be my first go on this fully oil painting) .



    "add some turps to make the paint flow and you are on your way"


    Bought my first flak of turpentine recently, haven't used it yet.

    Does it help to keep the oil paints as matte as possible (removing that shinny look many of them have) and does it accelerate the drying process?



    "dont add anything but turps just about everything else messes with the process."


    What about those Abteilung 502 thinners, "Fast Dry Thinner" and "Matt Effect Thinner"?

    Haven't tested the Matt one yet, as for the Fast one, have recently tested, and it seems to have helped the paint dry much faster than usual.



    "You will find earth pigments dry the fastest and the lighter the pigment the longer the drying process ."


    Yes, I've already noticed that! Burnt Sienna, Raw Umber, for instance, do indeed dry faster than some reds and yellows...



    "Your under coat for most purposes will be as close to your finish colour as possible : this ensures a very thin application of the oil paint and it MUST be matt ."


    Well, on my failed 120mm USA pilot (from which I had to entirely remove all the paint, and restart from zero), for the 1st time I used a primer (that Mr Hobby Mr Primer Surfacer 1000) and then a base coat (Humbrol enamel #63, Matt Sand) .
    I'll paint him again with oils, intend to start after I finish my current project (a 1/350 sailing ship, so you see, nothing to do with figures nor busts) .
    Anyway, this Humbrol enamel #63 is a matt color. But it isn't that close to the final oil colors I'll use for this guy! The Mae West is yellow/yellowish-orangish, the uniform is a kind of yellowish khaki, almost a beige...



    "The aid of a drying or light box will speed things up"


    Yes, I intend to use an old maternity box I used for breeding some psittacine birds years ago, which seems to have all the characteristics needed for a drying box for figures and busts painted with oils.

    Pics here, on the last post of this thread: https://www.planetfigure.com/threads/making-a-holder.37077/page-2



    Cheers!


    Dolf
  3. Ronaldo A Fixture

    I notice on your verlinden pilot the primmer is very shiny , that means you are beat before you start ii must be matt . most off the guys here in the uk use a cheap car body primmer from Halfords . so a good starter is to hunt out a grey matt car primmer .

    For me Mr hobby just does not cut the mustard , I also base coat with Scale 75 acrylics applied with an air brush with will lay down a perfect platform for your oils.
    It is a huge learning curve and has taken me 45 years of pain and disappointment to get the right result and only after one of the top modellers gave me a private lesson :eek:
    Dolf likes this.
  4. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal
    Ron,


    Those pics of my Verlinden pilot were taken indoors, at night, so using the flash from the camera + the lights from the ceiling. I guess it looks more shiny than it really was then.

    Check this new pic (also taken indoors, at night, same as the previous ones... Will take better pics tomorrow outside, if the Sun shines... We have some rainy and cloudy days for the moment here :( ), after 1 coat with my usual base coat (Humbrol enamel #63 Matt Sand) . It's also not that sharp... In reality it's much lesser shinny than it may look on these pics.


    IMG_1602 copy.jpg



    "so a good starter is to hunt out a grey matt car primmer ."

    A car primer... And it works fine with resin as well as white metal?

    Maybe I can find that one from Halfords here, will have to check.


    Btw, my Apache Lipan, using the same Mr Hobby Primer Surfacer 1000 (applied with a hand brush, I don't have an airbrush now) after the 1st coat:

    IMG_1603 copy.jpg


    And then after the 2nd coat:

    IMG_1604 copy.jpg


    Again, all these pics were taken indoors, using the camera flash + the ceiling lights. So they definitely look somewhat shinier than they actually are to the naked eye.



    Thanks a lot (y)


    Cheers,


    Dolf
  5. fogie A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    The point I was trying to make about Winsor and Newton labels was, basically, when you choose your colours, painting becomes
    easier if you select ones that our opaque rather than translucent. Different modellers have individual preferences here - some
    like a wide selection of colours, others like me, prefer a basic palette of just a few so we can mix our own. Neither view is right or
    wrong, it's simply a matter of personal choice. Whether you pop a blob of colour on a porous or non-absorbent surface, it must be
    thinned before you use it. Some prefer to use petroleum based white spirit for this, others choose an organic turpentine - my choice
    has always been Spike Lavendar Oil. Heat boxes are something I know little about - personally I've never used one or felt the need
    to do so - but again it's your choice.

    Whatever confusions and irritations you have encountered in using oil paints are known to most of us - we have all suffered them
    at some time - and have overcome them. Keep paddling !

    Mike
  6. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal
    Thank you very much Mike (y)


    "Whatever confusions and irritations you have encountered in using oil paints are known to most of us - we have all suffered them
    at some time - and have overcome them. Keep paddling !"


    Right, guess I'm not the 1st nor the only one having some difficulties. But I'll keep paddling, as you say :)


    Cheers!


    Dolf
  7. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal
    Ron,


    A couple of better pics taken today outside, on a intermitently either cloudy or raining or sunny day.

    The Verlinden pilot, on its Humbrol enamel #63 Matt Sand base coat, no direct Sun (hidden by some clouds) :

    IMG_1612 copy.jpg

    As you can see it's (or it seems to me) quite matt.

    The same, but having some direct Sun on it:

    IMG_1613 copy.jpg

    Here it looks shinier, but it's the Sun light reflecting.


    Now for the La Meridiana Apache Lipan (on its 2nd Mr Primer Surfacer coat), no direct Sun light:

    IMG_1618 copy.jpg

    And with some direct Sun light on it:

    IMG_1616 copy.jpg


    What do you think? Are they too shiny? Or matt enough? More matt than this it must be difficult.

    Btw, no Halfords car primer here... Checked on Amazon UK, they do have it, but don't ship to Portugalll (guess it has nothing to do with Brexit, but instead it might be because of those new rules concerning some flammable products, that can no longer be shipped abroad...) :( I'm already looking for another alternative, but according to some opinions I've read online, Halfords seems to be the best option for this...


    Cheers!

    Dolf
  8. Helm A Fixture

    Country:
    England
    Any car primer should do the trick Dolf. Halfords is just a major brand here in the UK so most everywhere will have one nearby.
    Steve
    Dolf likes this.
  9. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal
    Thanks a lot, Steve (y)

    "Any car primer should do the trick Dolf. Halfords is just a major brand here in the UK so most everywhere will have one nearby."

    After Ron mentioned it, I did some online research about this Halfords car primer. Found the Halfords official website, found it for sale on Amazon UK (that's where they state that they don't ship to Portugal), checked on Amazon France, no Halfords available there that I could find. That's why I assume it's because of those new rules concerning some flammable products that are now forbidden to ship abroad, hence beeing a UK made product, it probably can only be found in the UK.

    On my online research have also found people, mostly on various Forums (including about miniatures) chatting about this one, and other car primers. The consensus seems to be that this one is by far much better (especially for this effect, using it as a resin/white metal figures and busts primer) than any other brands...

    I posted a question on a local Forum focused on modeling here, asking if anyone knows of other brands that would do the same effect, but still no answers yet.

    Anyway, for now as I recently bought this Mr Hobby Primer Surfacer 1000, so the jar is still almost full, and so far I can't say I'm unhappy with the results (it just needs at least 2 coats of it, after the figure/bust have been cleaned/washed... And I guess it's an acrylic based paint, as it smells like I remember acrylic paints smelling...) I guess I'll keep using it, at least until I may find a good car primer ;)


    Cheers!

    Dolf
  10. Helm A Fixture

    Country:
    England
  11. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal
    Thanks a lot once again Steve (y)


    "Try these off Amazon you might find a local supplier"


    This one in particular, at least the dealer on Amazon, won't ship to Portugal (probably nowhere overseas, for the reasons previously mentioned) .

    I'll have a look at what's available on the local market and I'll end up finding something here, no worries ;)

    Just thinking, my car mechanic is a cool guy, I'll ask him, I'm sure he knows what's available locally :)


    Cheers!

    Dolf

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