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Enamel varnish over oils?

Discussion in 'Oils' started by Dolf, Dec 30, 2018.

  1. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal
    Hi!

    Is it ok to have a coat, or two, of enamel varnish, over oil paints? I suppose the oils must be 100% dry? Or is it possible to varnish before they are fully dry (in case it's ok to apply enamel matt, or satin varnish)?

    Another non-related question: what type o markers would you recommend that can write (tiny little dash lines on a 120mm scale parachute harness) over oils?


    Thanks!

    Cheers!

    Dolf
  2. Landrotten Highlander Well-Known Member

    Don't have experience regarding varnish, but have you considered the thing pens used in Technical Drawing? I believe they are a solvent based ink, and provided the oil is dry should not interfere with the underlying layer.
    Dolf likes this.
  3. megroot A Fixture

    Country:
    Netherlands
    I have done it once and it ended in a complete disaster. The oilpaint got off and got to start all over again.
    Use Testors Dullcoat......thats what helps.

    Marc
    Dolf likes this.
  4. Wings5797 A Fixture

    Country:
    France
    Hi Dolf
    It is ok to varnish on oil paint but the oil paint must be absolutely dry and hardened.
    This can take over six months depending on the colour and distribution/ depth of the paint.
    Keith
    Dolf likes this.
  5. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal

    Thank you L.H.

    That is a good hint concerning the kind of pens I may need, I'll look into those.


    Cheers!

    Dolf
  6. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal

    Thank you Marc.

    I guess you mean the enamel varnish applied over oils.

    I've looked into Testors and their Dullcote. It's a lacquer.

    Yes, I guess that if the oil paint is fully dry, it could be a solution (even for other figures where I'd be glad to have a matte varnish coat over some bright oil paint) .


    Cheers!

    Dolf
  7. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal

    Hi Keith, thank you.

    I think you are right about the time needed for some oil paints to be absolutely dry. It's a very long process indeed in some (probably most at least in my case, on this 120mm figure) cases (but not all, as funny enough other oil paints, different colors, different mixtures, may on the contrary need a maybe satin or clear varnish, as they dried faster and are more on a matt shade), I've read it can take up to even 12 months (depending on a few factors, both from the paints, as well as from the weather conditions, too cold it takes much longer than on a dry temperature) .

    Actually, if only when the oils are fully dry (for the enamel varnish), in such case it's the same as for more specialised types of varnish, designed for oil paints (such as Talens, Liquitex, Sennelier, W & N, etc.), hence maybe a better option go for these ones.


    Cheers!

    Dolf
    Wings5797 likes this.
  8. malc Well-Known Member

    Country:
    England
    Can I ask why you want to varnish over your oils ?
    Dolf and Wings5797 like this.
  9. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal

    Hi Malc,

    For one thing, protecting my oils for a long time, which I think is the main goal regarding the use of varnishes.With oils, or every other type of paints (enamels, acrylics) .

    In this particular case, some parts of my figure (painted in oils) look a bit too shinny IMO, hence I'd like to see the result after applying a coat of matt varnish. The goal here is reducing some of that shinny look.
    Other parts (which in reality should be a bit more shinny, such as the Mae West for instance), IDK why, but the oils look a bit too matt IMO, hence a coat of satin or clear varnish could perhaps give it some brilliance.


    Cheers!

    Dolf
  10. malc Well-Known Member

    Country:
    England
    Hi Dolf
    This is my experience.

    I have figures painted over 35 years and look as good as the day they were painted, just kept in a cabinet.
    As for your other concerns you can control that by oil mediums, most mediums increase gloss, wax addictive for matting down (low odour sansodor also matts oils down), as for varnish by all means but if some part is damaged it can be a nightmare to fix.

    PS I'm a sprayer by profession.
    Blind Pew, Jeff T and Dolf like this.
  11. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal
    Hi Malc,


    Thanks a lot for the hints.

    By oil mediums I assume you're talking about for instance W & N Liquin (original and others) . I do have Liquin Original on my wish list next time I go to an artists store, but my main goal here would be to mix with the oil paints in order to help them dry faster.
    Anyway, both Liquin Original as well as Liquin Fine Detail are not really matt, but kind of satin.

    I don't know what you call "wax addictive for matting down", could you please supply a name/brand, that I can look for? Thanks.


    Cheers!

    Dolf
  12. grasshopper A Fixture

    Country:
    Canada
    Some brands of oils tend to have more sheen than other. Some colours are glossier..the earths and oxides usually are most matt...what are you using? Grumbacher has a medium that helps matting..and after some months, you can simply give things a hit of dullcoat..just let things dry ..really dry..
    Dolf likes this.
  13. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal
    "Some brands of oils tend to have more sheen than other. Some colours are glossier..the earths and oxides usually are most matt...what are you using?"


    Same as before, the only few ones I have, Rive Gauche.

    The pilot uniform, which is a mix of various colors (in order to get the final tone I wish), such as Naples Yellow, Raw Sienna, Titanium White (all these Rive Gauche), with maybe a bit of Olievert (this one Van Gogh), is too shinny.

    The pilot's MaeWest (basically the same Naples Yellow as above, with a tiny little bit of an enamel red, for lack of an oil red color; funny they mixed well together adding a bit of White Spirit), is IMO a bit too matt (when from pics usually the Mae West is kind of at least satin, if not even gloss finish) .



    "Grumbacher has a medium that helps matting.."


    Didn't know that brand, thanks. Found it, and found the medium you mention. But this is an US brand, which makes it harder to import into the EU because of Custom fees and a lot of bureaucracy. Unless I can find it for sale in a local (or some other EU country) store.



    "after some months, you can simply give things a hit of dullcoat.."


    The same Dullcote lacquer from Testors mentioned above I guess.



    "just let things dry ..really dry."


    I understand that artists painters may need a long drying time for their oil paintings/canvas, as a lot of them seem to like work wet on wet.
    But I don't find it particularly interesting in our case, meaning using oils for painting figures and busts.
    It's been months that parts of my pilot (the main body, the arms) have been on the sun light every single day (when the Sun shows up, of course), and that paint on the uniform is still not fully dry.
    I wonder for how long I'll have to wait in order to finish it... Apparently somewhere between 6 to 12 months I guess... Not very practical IMHO.


    Cheers!

    Dolf
  14. franck edet A Fixture

    Country:
    Canada
    Dolf, if I may : get to your local (or not so local) arts store (i mean a real one) or go to Jackson's art supplies on the internet.
    There's a good range of dull or matt varnishes for oil paints. originally those are designed for classical 2d painters but work wonders over our figures once painted.
    I'm not a oil paint user, i paint exclusively with acrylics, but : the matt varnish i use is specifically designed for acrylics, comes in a can (and yes there is one for oils too) and just some sprays from a distance around 20 - 25 cms do wonders to obtain an even, totally dull, coat all over the fig (it needs around 15 - minutes to dry matte). it works perfect over heavy gloss gel medium, that is to say the effectiveness of those varnishes.
    mine is from the Brand Lefranc & Bourgeois.
    hope this helps !
    grasshopper and Dolf like this.
  15. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal
    Hi Franck,

    Thank you.

    This is what I can find on my local Arts store, from Lefranc & Bourgeois brand:

    https://www.pontodasartes.com/pt/procurar/?q=Verniz Lefranc & Bourgeois&subm=ok

    They do have other varnishes (for oil paints) from other manufacturers though.

    I checked Jackson's Art Supplies online (thanks for the hint, I didn't know this one), and they do have indeed a larger variety.

    The couple of matt varnish I can find from Lefranc & Bourgeois, as far as I get it, seem to be "retouching varnishes", not "final" ones (meaning, if I get it right, that they seem to be used as temporary, can be removed either with White Spirit or Terbentine, and before a "final" varnish is later applied) .

    I think I may have found a matt one, final, from Sennelier, this one:

    https://www.jacksonsart.com/sennelier-green-for-oil-matt-painting-varnish-100ml

    It's also available from my local Arts store, about the same price, so I'm inclined to get this one.



    Cheers!

    Dolf
  16. pkessling Member

    I was always hesitant to use any type of topcoats over oils. Usually, just made things worse.
    I used various undercoats and additives to achieve the type of surface that i wanted. Drop of Liquin for flesh and polished leather. Plaka casein for heavy wool, rough leather, etc. I did use clear shoe polish on leather boots for a very realistic polished boot.
    It is very important to pick the proper oil colors when you want a matte finish. Some colors/pigments always dry with a sheen.
    I know some painters use dullcoat over their painted figures. If it is “old” or not warmed up; it can leave a white film on the figure.
    Dolf likes this.
  17. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal
    Thank you pkessling.

    Didn't know about "Pelikan Plaka Casein paint", Liquin is on my wish list for next time I go to the Arts store.


    Cheers!

    Dolf
  18. Blind Pew A Fixture

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Try Fredericus Rex in Germany. Konrad stocks a material call Malmittel. It makes oils dry dead flat and really hurries up their drying time.
    patmaquette and Dolf like this.
  19. Dolf Active Member

    Country:
    Portugal
    Hi!


    "Try Fredericus Rex in Germany. Konrad stocks a material call Malmittel."


    Would you please be able to supply a direct link? Can't seem to find anything on my research.

    Thanks.


    Cheers!

    Dolf
  20. grasshopper A Fixture

    Country:
    Canada
    The site seems to be in German. And malmittel is generic German term on bottle as mediums...a thicker version is called malbutter by schminke. Am on the hunt as well...also grumbacher medium 1 is decent matte agent..but anything added tend to weaken paint films when used in excess so another method is a drying box...or using kagamushas scrub coat approach with Old Holland...a brand tending to the matte anyway

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