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December 18, 1942

Discussion in '"Today in History", Literature & Media Review' started by Martin Antonenko, Dec 18, 2022.

  1. Martin Antonenko A Fixture

    The Allies know and do - nothing!

    On December 18, 1942 (!) the following governments of Belgium, Great Britain, the Netherlands, Greece, Luxembourg, Norway, Poland, USA, the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and the "Committee of the Free French" (under General de Gaulle) published a statement:



    "The attention of governments ... has been drawn to the numerous communications from Europe that the German authorities, in all areas covered by their barbaric regime, limit themselves not only to the deprivation of the most elementary human rights of persons of Jewish descent, but of Fulfill Hitler's repeatedly expressed intention to exterminate the Jewish people in Europe...

    The governments listed above and the French National Committee most emphatically condemn this bestial policy of cold-blooded extermination.

    They explain that similar events can only strengthen the resolve of the freedom-loving peoples to crush Hitler's barbaric tyranny. They reaffirm their solemn commitment, together with all the United Nations, to ensure that those responsible for these crimes do not escape the vengeance they deserve and to expedite the necessary practical measures to attain the aim set. ...

    Jews are being transported from all occupied countries to Eastern Europe under the most atrocious and brutal conditions...

    The stronger ones are slowly destroyed by work in labor camps. The weak are left to die, starved to death, or systematically massacred in mass executions. The victims of these bloody atrocities number in the many hundreds of thousands of totally innocent men, women and children.”

    This statement, read out to the House of Commons by British Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden the previous day, shows:

    The Allied war opponents of Germany know exactly about the mass murder of the Jews in the German sphere of influence!

    At the latest through the so-called "Riegner telegram" they had clear knowledge...:


    The office manager of the Jewish World Congress in Geneva, Switzerland, Gerhart M. Riegner...


    ... had sent this telegram to the US State Department on August 8, 1942; he was previously by the German industrialist Edouard Schulte...


    ... had been informed in detail about the "Endlösung der Judenfrage" ("Final Solution to the Jewish Question") that was decided in January 1942 as part of the "Wannsee Conference" and was just beginning in Poland...:


    But the officials in the Foreign Office did not take the information seriously at first, evaluating it as a "wild rumor inspired by Jewish fears" - and not forwarding it to the White House!

    It was not until August 28, 1942 that the head of the World Jewish Congress in New York, Rabbi Stephen Wise...


    ... was informed, who then Felix Frankfurter...


    ... contacted a judge on the US Supreme Court. Frankfurter ensures that the report reaches the White House.

    President Franklin Roosevelt then took care of the drafting of the "Interallied Declaration".

    And yet the Americans did - almost nothing!

    For example, it remains an unsolved mystery of modern historiography why Great Britain and the USA, despite overwhelming air superiority, continued to concentrate their bombing raids on German inner cities instead of, for example, the railway lines (and thus the railway transport of the victims) to the death camps of Sobibor, Treblinka, Belzec and Auschwitz...




    ... and the killing facilities there (allied aerial photo of Auschwitz-Birkenau)...


    ...not destroyed.

    That would not have stopped the murder of the Jews as such, but it would probably have reduced the number of victims by many people.

    Significantly, neither the "Riegner Telegram" nor the "Interallied Declaration" were subjects of the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal...
  2. sd0324 PlanetFigure Supporter

    Yes, the Holocaust was America's fault. Totally. Evil Roosevelt.

    Martin64 likes this.
  3. Martin64 A Fixture

    I wonder what is the scale of the map with the railway lines - seems to be so simple to bomb the blue lines. The same goes for the aerial picture of Auschwitz - just bomb the gas chambers - were they mapped out for the pilots in WW II this way or were the "targets" added later on? What would the reaction of Nazi Germany have been? How would this thread have looked like if a bombing of Auschwitz would have caused some thousand victims among the inmates?
    The Riegner Telegram and the Interallied Declaration can`t be defined as warcrimes - so they were not subject of the Nuremberg Tribunal. Katyn in difference was a warcrime and was subject of the Tribunal. Unfortunately the Soviet representative left the courtroom while it was discussed and nobody else had any qualms about this.
    This thread is IMHO another amalgamation of history and putting blame on someone by speculation. Why? Why not just: "today in history"?
  4. Martin Antonenko A Fixture

    Dear Martin,

    I ment, those Telegrams etc. we're not used as EVIDENCE at Nuremberg.

    And TODAY 80 years ago the Allied declaration was publishd.

    So what's wrong with this thread?

    Dear Steve,

    responding to stupid polemics is a waste of time.

    The question of why the Holocaust of the German mass murderers was not at least complicated by Allied bombing is the subject of a page of serious discussion among historians around the world. This is not only about the role of the US, but about that of the British and Soviets alike.

    I think this would have made more sense than once again ploughing the rubble of already totally destroyed cities.
  5. Martin64 A Fixture

    You are suggesting that the Allies for purpose did not drop their bombs on the places you prefer and to support this view you mention that the declaration and telegram were not brought up at Nuremberg. They were obviously not necessary for the verdicts. The rest is speculation.

    I for my part always feel very uncomfortable if a German tells others about their failures (if not "knowingly involvement" as suggested in this thread) in the massmurder committed by Nazi Germany.
    sd0324 likes this.
  6. sd0324 PlanetFigure Supporter

    Well said.
    Martin64 likes this.
  7. Nap A Fixture

    Certainly a aweful telegram to even think about sending .......words cannot express the forthcoming horror IMO

  8. Martin Antonenko A Fixture

    Dear Martin,

    I am deeply saddened that you feel uncomfortable with my words now, since I am a citizen of the former murderous country and have thus lost all right to speak out about the Nazi crimes and the failures of other states - such as President Roosevelt's decision of June 4, 1939, 937 Jewish men, women and children who fled Nazi pogroms on the ship "St. Louis", not to let into the US!

    But please answer me a question:

    How many members of my family must have been murdered by the Nazi beasts for me to acquire the right to talk about it AFTER all?

    Please tell me the number of deaths which enables me German to express my opinion to an exemplary representative of the free world like you.

    Thank you
  9. sd0324 PlanetFigure Supporter

    You keep bringing Roosevelt up like he was culpable. He isn't whether you like it or not. The fact is that THE GERMANS committed the Holocaust. Period. To Try to place any blame on the Allies (you mean Roosevelt apparently) is offensive and arrogant. Again, I repeat THE GERMANS committed the Holocaust. Not Roosevelt because he didn't let 900 Jews in the U.S., that's a delusional statement.

    Martin64 likes this.
  10. Martin Antonenko A Fixture

    After all, you can't deny that it was exactly as I wrote.

    Roosevelt PERSONALLY made this decision, as did Cuba and Canada. The people had to return to Europe by ship, Belgium, the Netherlands, France and Great Britain took them in. The Jews taken in by Great Britain, about half of the passengers survived, the rest later fell into the hands of the GERMANS and were killed by the GERMANS.

    A quote by Richard M. Cohen in the "Washington Post" from March 2013 about not bombing the gas chambers and other facts:

    "He (Roosevelt) did not face the greatest crime in all of history with all the means at his disposal."

    (Probably also such an arrogant and offending GERMAN, this three-time "Emmy' winner!)

    How you evaluate it, your Problem.

    History can be so easy by leaving out everything that disturbs the simple own worldview.

    The only disturbing thing is that history is far more complicated. But I don't want to overwhelm you any further. Period.

    But maybe you read the book by the two Harvard professors Richard Breitman and Allan Lichtman ("FDR and the Jews", Harvard University Press) before you discuss further.

    The two understand the subject far more than you and I - and they go beyond their judgments about Roosevelt (he was a politician, not a saint!) much further than me.
  11. sd0324 PlanetFigure Supporter

    Roosevelt may have personally made the decision to refuse 900 Jews, maybe. But that in no way would have averted the Holocaust. Nor was it tacit encouragement. You know what would have stopped the Holocaust?.....if GERMANY hadn't started putting Jews in extermination camps. I don't know how you can deny that. It's really strange you somehow blame Roosevelt for the Holocaust.

    Totally not propaganda at all.


  12. Martin Antonenko A Fixture

  13. Martin64 A Fixture

    Hi Martin,
    another time it is better to switch to PM. Briefly the title of your History-thread already implies the allegation against the Allies. Oversimplified maps of railroad lines etc seem to give credit to your opinion - not to a proven historical reality. Pointing fingers at the Allies as German in the way you choose is IMHO far from appropriate. In my understanding the "today in history" series is not for sharing your opinion or political indoctrination but for sharing some more neutral background info about events of the past. Your right to voice your opinions is not infringed - there are many platforms on the Internet about political topics - just curb your dogma on PF. Cheers Martin
    Nap and sd0324 like this.
  14. Nap A Fixture


    Everybody has their own thoughts but please .....

    USE PM

    Martin64 and Martin Antonenko like this.

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