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Circassian of His Imperial Majesty's Own Convoy. First half of the XIX century.

Discussion in 'Digis - Digital Miniatures 3D Modeling' started by Vladimir Sychev, Mar 27, 2020.

  1. NeilW A Fixture

    Thanks for that Pierre: most interesting.. and yes, it is a superb piece (y) .

    Checked via Wiki here... totally verifies what you say although 'charivari' isn't given as a synonym. But how these baggy 'harem pants' translated into the relatively tight leg coverings under discussion seems strange (although some, eg Polish szarawary, could be baggy at the top but tight on the lower leg). Perhaps linguistically and style-wise the tighter 'churidar' seems a closer fit? :joyful:

    That the same word has a long established history from old French onwards as a rowdy cacophony of celebration and ridicule (see definitions below) seems even stranger o_O

    Elsewhere the term can refer toclunky,presumably noisy, jewellery (links to cacophony?) which seem to originate from Bavarian mens' jewellery worn at the waist and associated with hunting... I wonder if there's a hunter/chasseur trousers link here? Interestingly, the churidar is also said here to derive from the Indian word 'churi', or bangle so another jewellery link... stranger and stranger :nailbiting:

    Getting back to military wear, I re-checked several of my uniform ref works and found that in the French version of Osprey No5 (Carabinier) and O&S No9 (9-14e Hussard) there is only reference (as far as I can see) to 'surcullotte' (over-trousers/overalls) and 'pantalon de cheval' (horse/riding trousers). Dawson's Imp Guard Vol2 (cavalry) talks of straightforward 'cullottes' and 'surculotte', and 'pantalon' plus specific 'pantalon de tenue' , 'pantalon de voyage', 'pantalon a cheval' and 'pantalon du treillis'; he also refers to the artillery's canvas knee guards as 'manchette du botte' (all taken from official inventories of clothing). Other reference works use similar terms or their English equivalents :( .

    Back to baggy trousers (what madness, I feel a song coming on :cool:) I found MaA429 referring to Mamalukes' baggies as 'saroual' (also used in Osprey's texts on ACW Zouaves) whilst Wiki makes reference to Cossack's 'shavovary' pants. O&S No3 (Mamluks etc) makes reference to mamelukes' 'pantalon a la turque' whilst Dawsons Imp Guard Vol2 (cavalry) refers to them as 'charouls' (a version of saroual?), and Lithuanian Lancers' as 'pantalon de tatare' (again from official inventories of clothing) :unsure: .

    So, almost at the point of giving up when I checked in the English versions of O&S N7 (1st-8th Hussars) and O&S8 (Garde Cavalry No4) where the term 'charivari' does indeed crop up with reference to the overalls (aka surculotte).... mission accomplished :happy:

    Update: having now installed a searchable PdF reader I have found the term (twice only) in Dawson's book: once with ref to Chasseurs and once re Red Lancers both times as an alternative to riding trousers/overalls :):happy:

    BUT... all of the above are some type of pants/trouser going all the way up to the waist: none are the sort of knee/thigh length hose under discussion, so have we really solved it?????? :wtf:

    ... well, that was an absolute waste of time, but as some may have noticed, I enjoy this sort of pointless research :angelic:

    Your budding etymologist, Neil (y)

    Some (of many) definitions I found:
    UPDATE: Don't know why but these definitions (C&P) have been lost... I'll reinstate them if/as/when I get chance

    The Oxford Concise Etymological Dictionary gives:

    The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages gives:

    The Miege English:French dictionary of 1677 confirms the marriage element:

    In music, the Oxford Dictionary of Music notes its survival (including the original one in the USA) as:

    A modern band called Chariviri carries on the tradition (described as 'rough music' and 'a wall of sound').

    Also, the old Punch magazine (pre Private Eye!) was sub-titled 'the London Charivari' in homage to a French satirical work of 1832.
    Nap and akaryu like this.
  2. Richard Baxter A Fixture

    Understanding our language, and others of course, is never a waste of time. Such research is invaluable and fascinating, makes you think about how certain types of dress came to be as they were or are.
    Nap, NeilW and akaryu like this.
  3. akaryu A Fixture

    Most interesting, Neil!

    How the word describing all kinds of loose fitting baggy pants came to be used for a tight fitting kind of cavalry 'gaiters' is a mystery indeed. The leg wear of the Circassian gentleman closely resembles the long leggings or gaiters worn by the Hungarian cavalrymen. Even in pre-revolution France Hungarian light cavalry was employed, so maybe the lively boisterous ways of these Hungarian horsemen came to mean all kinds of noisy rambuctious happenings to the French, who knows? My wife and in-laws having Balkan roots, I can see that happening!

    In the same way, to the stiff and uptight Spanish nobles of Charles V court, all things unknown and un-Castillian were called 'flamenco' or ' a la flamenca', literally = Flemish, because we were considered wild barbarians.

    A nice digression from the workbench!

    Nap and NeilW like this.
  4. NeilW A Fixture

    So true: on a vaguely related military theme, based on phonetics some English terms may seem to link but their etymology may suggest otherwise:
    • 'gaiter' as a lower leg covering comes from the Middle French 'guiestre' for ankle/wrist*;
    • 'gait' for style of walking (from Old Norse 'gata' for street/path);
    • 'garter' a strap or ribbon worn around the leg to hold up socks/hose etc (from Celtic/Welsh 'gar' for shank) ;
    • 'gate' as an opening in a wall/fence etc (from Old English 'geat'; Old Norse 'gat' for opening);
    • 'gate' (again Old Norse 'gata' for street/path): hence in places such as Derby Bishopsgate means the street where the bishop's palace was, not a gateway in the city wall (the basic rule is in the south of England it's a gate/exit, in the north/midland as likely to be a street....think Danelaw)
    *all etymology taken from Mirriam Webster online dictionary
    Now, its quite likely that if you go further back (Proto-Indo-European?) words such as gata, gat, geat, gar and guiestre may derive from the same original root (after all, they all relate to legs/walking etc) but the links aren't as clear as they sound phonetically.
    I also like homonyms (or more correctly in this case an oronym) my favourite being:

    I wonder whether the wether weathered the weather or whether the weather weathered the wether away... or not?

    Best read out loud and fast: used to confuse the hell out of my students (the key is knowing what a wether is ;)).
    Nap, Richard Baxter and akaryu like this.
  5. Richard Baxter A Fixture

    Thanks Neil, excellent stuff.
  6. Nap A Fixture

    Hi Guys

    Great references from Martin as always

    And a fascinating amount of information on names for items ......amazing what we learn here on PF !! ...nice one Pierre, Neil and Richard

    Hope we see this piece painted up

    akaryu likes this.
  7. akaryu A Fixture

    Mine is on its way, together with the princely Circassian couple, straight from the Caucasus!

    Oh boy, am I looking forward to get my paws on that parcel:):):)

    Keep them coming, Vladimir....


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