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Black Watch Cap Insignia-Crimean War

Discussion in '"Today in History", Literature & Media Review' started by bucsfan21, May 16, 2016.

  1. bucsfan21 Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Black Watch Historians, I have the fine bust done by Stormtroopers of the Black Watch Officer in the Crimea on my workbench. I have a question on the insignia on the cloth cap...It appears to be a brass object...Looks like two crossed cannon barrels. I have looked online and found a number of pictures of insignia...But I have yet to find a description of what the object is actually. Can anyone shed some light on the matter?

    The Crimean War is a new period of interest for me. Any comments, direction would be much appreciated...

    Thank you for your time and sharing of knowledge...

    Terry Martin-Member of the Atlanta Miniature Figure Society of Atlanta, GA, USA
  2. mick3272 A Fixture

    Terry,
    Does this help Officers Cap Badge 42nd Rgt of foot ( Black Watch)
    [IMG]

    Mick
  3. billyturnip A Fixture

    Country:
    England
    I'm not an expert but could that be a St. Andrew's cross?

    [IMG]
  4. bucsfan21 Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Billy, The second picture is the symbol! What does the figure represent in back of the crossed x?
    Is it a friar from a religious order of the period?
  5. billyturnip A Fixture

    Country:
    England

    I would imagine it represents St Andrew the patron saint of Scotland Terry. What we need now is a real Black Watch expert to come along at tell us if the badge I posted is the correct badge for an Officer during the Crimean War.
  6. Windy Active Member

    Country:
    England
    The Black Watch cap badge is the Star of the Order of the Thistle, with an image of St Andrew in the centre, holding the saltire cross on which he was crucified, surrounded by the Order's motto - Nemo me impune lacessit. The sphinx at the bottom was awarded as a battle honour to all the regiments which served in the Egyptian campaign of 1801.
    billyturnip likes this.
  7. bucsfan21 Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Billy, I appreciate your time and desire to lend a hand. I am very curious as to what the symbol represents in the history of the Black Watch?

    Thanks, Terry
    billyturnip likes this.
  8. Windy Active Member

    Country:
    England
    St Andrew is the patron Saint of Scotland and his image or more especially his saltire has been representative of Scotland for centuries. It is still used as the badge of the Royal Regiment of Scotland to this day. The Order of the Thistle is the most prestigious Scottish order, with the Sovereign as it's head. The star of the order was/is used as the cap badge of the Scots Guards, the Royal Scots, the Highland Light Infantry, and the Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment).
    billyturnip likes this.
  9. mick3272 A Fixture

    The Badge Roger posted, I believe would be post 1881. I would even go as far to say post 1902 looking at the Crown. Before the Childers reform of 1881 Regiments were numbered the 42nd Regt of Foot being the Black Watch The badge I posted fits the period of 1854 but may not be the one on the figure.
    But I will stand to be corrected.
    Mick
    Windy likes this.
  10. billyturnip A Fixture

    Country:
    England

    That was my concern too Mick but I don't know enough about the subject to say one way or the other.
    mick3272 likes this.
  11. mick3272 A Fixture


    Snap. Cap badges are not my strong point.
    billyturnip likes this.
  12. Chrisr PlanetFigure Supporter

    Country:
    Australia
    42nd Regiment badge 1844 -1855 described as follows in Kipling and King p74

    Officer's feathered bonnet: The Sphinx superscribed Egypt in silver. Other Ranks: The Sphinx superscribed Egypt surmounted by St Andrew with the numerals 42 below. All within a thistle wreath with a scroll inscribed Waterloo at head and a further scroll inscribed Peninsula at base.

    Grenadier company: St Andrew replaced by a grenade.

    Photo of the Other Ranks badge in brass is shown below, Sergeants were white metal. It continued to be worn until the 1870's

    Also this link. Scroll down the badges on the left and you will come to the 1844 -1855 badge http://www.blackwatch.50megs.com/badge.html

    Cheers
    Chris

    Attached Files:

    billyturnip likes this.
  13. Chrisr PlanetFigure Supporter

    Country:
    Australia
    Kipling and King list this as worn 1874 - 1881 but the site in my earlier post lists it as officers 1868 -1901. However, I am pretty sure it was worn by sergeants prior to 1881, but others say it was worn by them beyond 1881 and perhaps up to 1901.

    Cheers
    Chris

    Cheers
    Chris
    mick3272 likes this.
  14. Chrisr PlanetFigure Supporter

    Country:
    Australia
    This is the Officer's badge 1902 -1914 with the King's crown. Prior to that it had QVC crown

    Cheers
    Chris

    Cheers
    Chris
    billyturnip and mick3272 like this.
  15. mick3272 A Fixture

    Hi Terry Roger Chris,
    This is a photo taken by Roger Fenton 1855, I understand Stu'd figure was based on. If you may be able to zoom in and have a closer look.


    [IMG]


    Mick
    Chrisr and billyturnip like this.
  16. Chrisr PlanetFigure Supporter

    Country:
    Australia

    Thanks Mick.

    Well that's another one - looks like St Andrew superimposed on a St Andrew's cross. Photo's of the period are always the best source, although K&K did say theirs was the officers' for the feather bonnet. The number of badges some regiment's wore can be mind boggling, with different badges for different headdress.

    Cheers
    Chris
    billyturnip likes this.
  17. bucsfan21 Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Chris, I am unable to view the attachment you sent earlier on the Roger Fenton Photo. Would like to see it if you could post it again please.

    Thanks, Terry Martin
  18. bucsfan21 Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Billy Turnip, Mick and Chris, Really appreciate you fellas efforts to educate me on the cap badge from the
    Stormtroopers Black Watch bust. I must say you fellas know your stuff! Thanks again for your time. I now have a better understanding of what I am painting.:)

    All the Best, Terry Martin-Member of the Atlanta Miniature Figure Society of Atlanta, GA
  19. Chrisr PlanetFigure Supporter

    Country:
    Australia
    Terry,

    Try putting the mouse over the blue 42nd feathbonnet badge1850.pdf and then hit that, It should open up.


    If that does not work can someone advise me how to put the image up so it invisible in a post?

    Cheers
    Chris

    Attached Files:

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