Bf 109 F-4 Tail.....PRE-ORDER SOON

Discussion in 'Figure News' started by EDUARDO SANCHEZ BARBERO, Jan 10, 2020.

  1. Hello everybody…..
    Bf 109 F-4 Tail …..READY
    Scale 90mm,resin and White metal
    Soon all info.Dolman Miniatures release

    CORTADA 2.jpg
    CORTADA 1.jpg
    IMG_20200110_110702_497.jpg
    _20200110_202258.JPG
    _20200110_095242.JPG
  2. NeilW Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Nice idea (if very limited applications).

    I wonder if that engraved swastika will cause problems in Germany, Austria and some other countries?

    Speaking of engraving: the aircraft modellers' debate over panel detailing must be raised (in reality, except in very specific lighting, most panels pretty-well disappear: wartime and museum photos attest to this).

    The engraved Merseille trophy detail is nice, but also limits the range of 'aces' decorations available to the modeller (a whole area of study in its own right). I suppose it could be filled/sanded and there are loads of print and online references.

    How's about Heinrich Ehrler for a start?
    ME1.JPG ME2.JPG
    The colour pic is a mash up from a commercial replica from this outfit: https://www.axiswarprize.com/panels-and-emblems.html

    Worth a visit to see other 'aces' fin and badge decorations,
  3. NeilW Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Re raised detailing.

    Weren't Me Bf 109 (inc Fs) rudders a metal frame covered in cloth (seems that some later 109G 'tall-tail' ones were made of wood). Model kits typically show this rather than what on this version's look like raised ridges (which I think are an over-exaggeration of the stitches/lacing onto the framework's spars?).

    The monocoque airframe was as (click to enlarge):

    ME3.JPG

    You can get a hi-res download from the L/H links here: http://scale-model-aircraft.com/plans-drawings/interwar-aviation/messerschmitt-bf-109

    Marseille's rudder, which still exists in a German museum, and the other shots below show this (and the stitching/lacing) nicely.

    Click to enlarge

    MS1.JPG ME4.JPG ME5.JPG
    EDUARDO SANCHEZ BARBERO and Nap like this.
  4. I have other references to these than you show
  5. NeilW Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Hi Eduardo,

    Don't get me wrong, it's a nice concept and the figure looks great, just raising a few concerns ref the detailing (which may well disappear in the painting).

    Yes, I am a bit of a rivet counter and so I'd be interested to see your alternative reference pics (send privately if you'd prefer).

    So, have a good day and good luck with the launch,

    Neil

    PS: I assume you'll be launching the fig as well... you don't say.

    PPS: as an alternative to having the engraved decoration you could consider supplying a plain version and selling figures with their own personalised decal and/or reference sheet?
  6. FlaBtl (Sfl) 606 Active Member

    Country:
    Germany
    Yes the swastika could be causing many problems in germany and some neighbor countries.
    Do you already know the price for that kit?

  7. 58994513_383761242213676_8033830988247203840_n.jpg
    59168546_376429906416065_6535754242307653632_n.jpg
    59401186_444622032959742_6989317984359546880_n.jpg 59401186_444622032959742_6989317984359546880_n.jpg
  8. Hi
    These were my references, what are the true ones?]I do not know anymore ,,,,,,,,,
  9. Martin64 A Fixture

    Country:
    Germany
    Hi Eduardo,
    great job on Marseille - I hope that the model will be available in Germany (will order it online) but the sale at a shop or the display as it is at a show might get people into legal trouble because of the display of the swastika - at least over here in Germany. Maybe one day a swastika will be seen als historically wrong because all models just show the German cross as markings of WWII-aircraft....
    About the markings on the tail section of your model and their accuracy:
    Hans Joachim Marseille was flying different versions of the 109 at different times - regularly aircraft no. 14 of the third ("yellow") squadron - and due to his many kills the marks at his tail fin - and the types of 109`s - changed again and again.
    109 F4-sep42-1.jpg 109 F4-rudder-sep42.jpg 109 Marseille.jpg 109 Marseille 1.jpg
    You decided to display him with the tail of one of his 109 F4`s - close to the end of his carrer
    109- F4 Marseille.jpg
    most probably this one:
    Bf109F-4_Gelbe14_Ma_JG27_kl96.jpg

    and here is the one historical inaccuracy I found on your model:eek::eek::eek:

    As you see above the kill maks at the tail of the BF 109 F 4 show 151 victories. Marseille was credited in total with 158 victories before he lost his life due to a technical problem of his brandnew BF 109 G-2 and if I am right the last reference pic you posted shows all 158 kill marks (so he is shown just some days before his death) but the engraved detail on your model shows 161 kill marks....

    So the rivet counters will have to rework the tail of your 109 anyway - minimum they have to fill three kill marks:D .

    Cheers, Martin
  10. Although all the work is done, the tail of the plane will be modified so that all customers are satisfied
    Martin64 likes this.
  11. Although all the work is done, the tail of the plane will be modified so that all customers are satisfied
  12. NeilW Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Hi Eduardo,
    I think this is a case of us both being right :)


    The issue for me is that the model shows what appear to be almost rigid horizontal rib structures raised well above the rudder's skin:
    ME.JPG
    (I realise that this effect is to some extent exaggerated due to the overhead lighting, but even so they appear to me to be far too prominent)

    These largely follow the sort of features shown in your and many other painted (rather than photographic) references. However, as explained below, I suggest that they create the wrong impression.

    MY REASONING:
    The following show the basic structure of the 109 rudder (except for later 'tall-tail' variants).
    ME6.JPG ME10.JPG

    This metal framework was then covered in cloth and from what I can make out was laced to the horizontal ribs with a strip of reinforcing material beneath it as below (this is a 109E but the rudder construction was the same for the F).
    ME11.JPG ME8.JPG

    These show up well in the above due to the lighting conditions (but even then they appear less raised than the model).

    But look what happens under different lighting... now you see them... now you don't!
    ME9.JPG ME7.JPG
    (this is the same aircraft, only the lighting differs)

    A selection of photos shows the same effect but in all cases the lacing isn't prominent:
    ME2.JPG ME4.JPG ME5.JPG ME12.JPG
    ME3.JPG

    I don't know if this is correct (anyone know?), but that AWP rudder replica site states that some rudder artwork was painted on a separate fabric layer on top of the rudder, thus giving a flatter surface where the ribbing/lacing would barely be visible at all (eg Bartels, and Bar's 2nd/4th pics below: https://www.axiswarprize.com/heinrich-bartels.html). This may make sense in terms of painting onto a flatter surface with less distortion and perhaps ease of transfer from one plane to another. These may show this?
    ME1.JPG ME13.JPG ME15.JPG ME14.JPG
    (the last one is an AW mock up of Bar's 100+13 as in the B/W pic above- whose caption incorrectly states 128 kills)

    CONCLUSION:
    I think that what is happening is that as with many 'superdetailed' models, such features have become over-exaggerated and much more visible than they actually are to the naked eye (especially at scale distances). This often happens with panel and rivet details (even when flush): in most aircraft such details are barely visible except in extreme low level lighting or on the bare metal and not at all when covered in several layers of camouflage paint. This is a matter of continual debate amongst the aero-modelling fraternity (of which I was a member for most of my early modelling career- specialising in Axis a/c)

    A good example of this was the first time I visited HMS Victory and (only half jokingly) commenting to my friend that it 'wasn't as detailed as the Airfix model' (one of my faves- I've built it six times for various people and still have a half-finished one somewhere). The point being that in their pursuit for accuracy Airfix had reproduced each of its hull's 1/180 scale copper plate and its nails whereas in reality you have to look hard to see them at 1:1 scale.

    So, as said, I think that it is more a matter of emphasis than inaccuracy.

    As said, a nice idea, and with the fig it will look great,

    Neil
  13. NeilW Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Ah... just seen that you intend to modify it... I assume following Martin's comments... and to de-emphasise the lacing?

    Neil
  14. I will this
    Nap likes this.
  15. Martin64 A Fixture

    Country:
    Germany
    Eduardo - you are the man(y)(y) - but I would not have hesitated to buy your product as it is. Maybe you can add the already finished tails as extras as a special version?;)
  16. NeilW Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Good call Eduardo.

    The only thing is that the lacing seems to have a distinct diagonal slant (presumably goes from one lace hole to the next?).

    These are enhanced from that 109E pic to show the effect (the backing strip is less obvious so I've indicated it with the dotted lines)

    ME9.JPG MEdetail2.JPG MEdetail1.JPG
  17. NeilW Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    My final contribution ;)

    I suggest that you check out the rudder from original sources as the one you say you intend to use doesn't seem right in terms of its inner framework.

    I've found several configurations as below and some useful sites, this one is excellent (specialist in 109s: check out the 'Walkaround' pages)
    http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm

    Also a detail of the lacing (seems the tape underneath was cut with pinking sheers so has a zig-zag edge)

    MEdetail4.JPG MEdetail6.JPG


    Hope this is helpful(y)

    BTW: the 109 site also shows a 158 kills version of Marseille's rudder, presumably done retrospectively after his death as his last eight kills (if you believe the records) were in a 109G in which he crashed and died due to an engine fire on 30/9/42. This is the one (from 109F 8673) that is in the Gatow museum.
    MEdetail5.JPG http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm
    Martin64 likes this.

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