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A Questions about posing Sculpts

Discussion in 'Sculpting' started by TorMag, Oct 23, 2007.

  1. TorMag Member

    Hi All, been awhile since I have posted here, real life has been getting in the way of sculpting..... I want to start a sculpt of two 11th Century Knights locked in Combat, 1/8 or 1/6 scale... and have been thinking about poses.... I want both Knights to be using Sword and Shields...... Where I am having problems in my mind is I want the pose to be very dynamic with one of the Knights clearly kicking the others a$$....

    When you think of dynamic sculpts, I have been told you to think of the the range of motion. Think of a baseball player throwing a ball, you want the pose to be either at the very start of the range of motion or towards the very end, not somewhere in the middle.... I am just having trouble visualizing that with the Knights..... Any help would be appreciated.

    Tor
  2. Sambaman Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Tor, one of my absolute favorite pieces is the viking (Soldier's if I'm not mistaken) I posted below. This is of course Ernesto Reyes' beauty (Ernesto, I hope you don't mind me using your version, it is perfection). I just always saw some poor soul in front of this guy just about to meet his maker! You know, on the ground, or at least nealing as the nearly vanquished, shield up in desperation with a look of terror in his eyes. To me the viking is just starting his "death blow" here. I sorta picture him just starting his back-swing, the axe headed backwards to the full extent, ready to swing forward in the final crunch! Ok, I'm back now, thought this would be good inspiration!

    Jay H.
    OKC

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  3. frank h Well-Known Member

    Country:
    England
    Hi
    This is interesting....for an action scene could go with
    a comic book style .... where when one guy gets hit ....his head whips round
    in the foreground..... whereas in the background you see the follow through from the blow

    Then substitute swords for fists... the guy on the recieving end...would have his sword and shield lowered..as his defensive stance had gone

    hope this makes sense...it was easier to visualise rather than type...LOL

    Frank
  4. TorMag Member

    Jay and Frank,

    Thanks for the quick replies... Jay that is one of my favorite mins too... I always liked that pose...... You have gotten the thoughts started......
  5. Einion Well-Known Member

    Big! Man, those expanses of mail are going to be a challenge :eek:

    There's a lot to be said for this basic idea (it's been repeated in modelling guides as far back as I can remember) but it's just a guide, not something to be followed slavishly.

    I think a good example of this can be seen in photos of baseball pitchers - both ends of the throwing action can be exciting poses but even in 'the middle' of the throw the pose is very dynamic. And I think this:
    http://www.stevenellis.com/steven_ellis_the_complete/images/roy_halladay_1.jpg
    is clearly more dynamic than this:
    http://www.njit.edu/publicinfo/newsroom/images/baseball_pitch215.jpg

    Einion
  6. gorgosaurus Active Member

    Country:
    Denmark
    In a fight with sword and shield you spend most of your time making sure your body is not exposed to blows from your opponent or his comrades in arms.
    This makes for a pretty "closed" and static pose.

    I presume this will represent a duel involving only two combatants.
    If one figure is going to be very "open" and dynamic, his opponent should look truly "down and out", sunk to the ground and helpless or cowering under his shield.


    Spike.
  7. gwensp New Member

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
  8. Einion Well-Known Member

    From what little evidence there is apparently early-mediaeval sword technique wasn't about technical 'fencing' blows (point-heavy swords, no ricasso) it was all about the big strike.

    But then as artists we can take as much license as we'd like :)

    From a technique standpoint there's a lot hanging on the exact sword type Tor wants to depict here and in a transitional period like this there's some choice (partly dependent on geography as well as the exact date).

    Einion
  9. TorMag Member

    Thanks guys for all of the great feed back..... Yes at 1/6 scale it's alot of chain mail, but patience and a few double Martinis really help........

    Broad Sword and Shield combat poses can be very boring take alook at this SCA picture....
    [IMG]

    Not very exciting.... I guess I am looking for something more like this....

    [IMG]

    But I want more of a defeated pose..... I do my armatures by making body shape cores... I guess I should just put together my two armatures and play around with the pose....

    Tor
  10. gorgosaurus Active Member

    Country:
    Denmark
    Yes, no fencing, just hacking.

    Statistical analysis of skeletal evidence of wounds from Visby, 1361 A.D., reveals a preponderance of deep cut wounds to the right forearm and wrist, the left shin and the back of the head. Any part of the body exposed whilst attacking would be chopped at, if you went down you were finished off. As at Towton a hundred years later, many bodies show evidence of "frenzy" hacking, with cuts that can be counted in tens.

    Back in the 11th century , disciplined use of defensive tactics by the Anglo-Saxons at Hastings ALMOST denied the Normans their victory.

    Spike.
  11. renarts Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    One of the things that was recognized at Towton and is discussed in Blood Red Roses is that foot soldiers in the field tended to work in groups and were very efficient killers. In some cases forward members of the group did little more than pull opponents into the group for those behind them to finish them off or cause an initial debilitating wound and allow rear ranks to deliver the kill. Since the forensic evidence is broken into three groups, premortem, paramortem and post mortem, archeologists were able to reconstruct the causes of death for the bodeis excavated. Interesting stuff and definately a well worth it read.

    Tor, the picture of the SCA combatants look static because they are at lay-on and not yet engaged. Not a fair assesment of what is about to transpire. As the first blows are thrown it will quickly turn into the second picture. Though many SCA fights (tournaments and one on one pick-ups) tend to start off with alot of the weight on the rear foot (though the knight in red is standing forward and is bladed into the fight already at the lay on) with one opponent quickly taking the defensive and back stepping and the more aggresive pursuing. The poses then would tend to be a little more active. BUt I would argue that fighting using SCA swords is much different than what you would find with bladed weapons. Since the majority of the SCA kills are to the head and thus the defense will most likely be the shield and sword creeping higher and higher as opponents try to make that kill shot. I think some of the fighting you are now seeing within the "fechtbuch" community (i.e. Talhoffer, Fiore, Wallensteine, etc.) would more likely be that which you would find in a real medeival battlefield by professional soldiers. Since they can grapple and we in the SCA can't, it makes for a much different dynamic.
    The combat seen during some of the melees like at Gulf Wars, Pennsic or Estrella has plenty of action in it and I've seen some pretty animated fights. There, because of sheer numbers and melee rules everything becomes a target from almost any angle. Again making for a much different dynamic in the fight in both offense and defense.

    In reference to your original question, I'd pick up a copy of Drawing Comics the Marvel Way. There is a whole chapter there on the posing of characters and how action, force, etc can be illustrated in the pose. Sometimes what may seem like a heroic or exagerated pose is necessary because the end result (illustration, figure, statue) is a static thing, relying on the pose to convey the action of the moment.

    Regards,
    Mike
  12. Jeff Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    There are all kinds of things we could suggest but one of the best ways to get interplay between figures is to make some basic armatures of the two figures and just start playing with them and see what works best. Watch some of the videos at the ARMA (Assoc of Renaissance Martial Arts) site. When you see the guys at that site using the tactics of the day it is just amazing. There is no Hollywood spinning sword swings it is just in your face. When you see them turn their backs to any one they drop there own sword across their back and neck to guard against a swing. When I first saw a couple of the guys from that site on a history channel program it was a revelation. There was no wasted effort. If they were in too close to swing their swords they would bash with the pommel of the hilt. It really might be that showing them just after solid blow on say the helmet where one is reeling back as we see the follow through of the blow would really work well.
  13. TorMag Member

    I just saw these by Alterton, I had forgotten about the one on the right.... The one on the left is his new one he just posted over on the Clubhouse.... Something similar to the pose of the right.... is more like what I am thinking.. I will have to play with the armatures to come up with something that is not a direct ripoff of the pose.....

    [IMG]
  14. Airchallenged New Member

    Country:
    United-States
    I was doodling knights the other day in Calc II and my drawing would fit this idea. Basically take the hammer guy on the left and the middle guy on the ground and turn them into knights and swap the hammer for a sword being held up ready to thrust down like a spear, add a shield and sword to the guy on the ground, with attacker standing over victim pining him down with his leg and that was the drawing.

    Matt

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