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Can oil and acrylic and enamel mix?

Discussion in 'General Figure Talk' started by slohand2, Apr 1, 2011.

  1. slohand2 New Member

    Country:
    Singapore
    I have not been succesful trying to blend with either acrylic or enamel during my painting. I find a little more success, blending and shading with oil, but the painted surfaces, especially the face ended up "rough". Am I missing something here? From tutorials, I will start with base coat and then go through the various shades using oils.

    Another question I have is that I have seen a tutorial that uses oil pastels on horses. I believe I have not come across the mention of this media in PF. Is this practical say on larger busts? Again my personal issue is with the blending and the tutorials show that its easier than acrylics.

    Thanks and cheerio
  2. btavis Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Drying time of paints:

    Acrylics - fastest
    Enamels - slightly slower
    Oils - slowest

    Obviously if there is not enough time before the paint dries to blend then that technique will not work. Blending with acrylics is done by creating an optical illusion by painting in successive thin layers of paint. Each layer must be completely dry before adding another. The minimum number of layers is probably five but some people go as high as twelve.

    What this means is, if for example you were trying to blend from pure black to white you would create three shades of gray where one gray is a 50-50 mix of black and white and the other two are 75-25 B/W and 25-75 B/W. The consistency of the paint should be like weak tea. The application in order then would be overlapping bands something like this:

    .....................................................................................................[-----white-----]
    ..........................................................................[-----25-75 B/W-----]
    ...............................................[-----50-50 B/W-----]
    ...................[-----75-25 B/W-----]
    [-----Black-----]

    I would probably base coat in the middle gray. Obviously, if you have more layers of transitional gray then the effect is even more convincing. It is time consuming but effective. Jaume Ortiz is a great example of this technique so take a look at his work.


    Enamels can be blended but since the drying time is still pretty fast the best technique is by stippling one color into the other at the point where they meet. A little solvent helps aid in the mixing of the colors. There are some miniaturists who paint exclusively in enamels to a high standard like Bill Horan, Mike Good, Mike Blank, etc.

    Oils are the easiest to blend but you run the risk of over blending or, if the paint is applied to thickly, in leaving brush strokes. In miniatures the whole secret is in retaining contrast almost to the point of exaggeration. Especially in the smaller scales of 75mm and below. This is what helps make the 3-D effect pop out. The oils should be first drained of their oil content by placing on an absorbent card first. The paint should be applied thinly and do not over brush as it will start to streak. I avoid using turpentine but use paint thinner instead but it is best to apply the paint without anything else. Some oil colors are more transparent than others making blending difficult. Stippling can also be used to great effect and a large soft brush can assist in this. A base color in either acrylics or enamels can greatly assist in the over-coating with oils. The drawback to oils is that some colors dry shinier than others and in miniatures we strive for a matte finish mostly except for painting metallics or other special effects. There are numerous example of oil painters but Daniel Cartacci is probably one of the best. He has an excellent book out which a great reference.

    Generally, dry brushing is to be avoided but may be used for some special effects like adding mud, dirt or grime to clothing. However, try to avoid it as the technique is obvious and not considered the best for creating the illusion of blended colors.

    I have personally never tried oil pastels on miniatures. However, regardless of what medium you use it is the end product that is important. If it looks good and convincing then it is probably okay. I have used chalk pastels for weathering effects and when used sparingly they can be very convincing. However, don't handle the figure or paint over them as the effect is destroyed.

    More than anything, the old adage about less is more is very true.

    There are tutorials on this board for different mediums of which someone can link to I am sure.
  3. gordy Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Mix as in stir oils with acrylics ? Answer to that is no ;)

    Acrylics are , due to their short drying time are layered in much like an elevation map :

    [IMG]
    kiwi45 likes this.
  4. ausf Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    I've used dry pastels for weathering on armor models, I would imagine oil based is just another delivery system for pigment, easier blending, just stickier than paint.

    If you are talking about blending as in layering, Bob and Gordy have it covered perfectly. If you mean blending as in mixing, it's a no. Different solvents react differently creating a whole mess of problems. Even in specific classes there could be trouble: Tamiya acrylics are commonly thinned with alcohol while Vallejo is water. If I recall correctly, Tamiya is ether-based, almost enamel-like even though it's classified as an acrylic. It's flammable as well, which isn't a normal 'acrylic' property. Both are excellent paints, but not together.

    Best topo in the world Gordy! ;)
    gordy likes this.
  5. Harry New Member

    Country:
    Netherlands
    I must say, the topographical map is a great explanatory device. In one image, and without words, it almost tells you all you need to know. I got some acrylic paints recently to have a go with but I was having trouble trying to get them to "work" (I'd only ever used oils or enamels before). Now I "get it". Thanks Gordy!
    gordy likes this.
  6. gordy Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    ;) You're welcome!
  7. slohand2 New Member

    Country:
    Singapore
    I may have phrased the questions wrongly. I mean to ask "mix" as using the different mediums when painting, eg, after a base coat of acrylic or enamel, use oil on top of that when doing the blending/shading.

    Thanks all, and btavis would have answered my fuzzy question.
  8. btavis Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Yes you can use them like that. Just make sure the base layer is completely dry especially when using enamels. You can even put acrylics on top of oils if the oils are thoroughly dry. I have done it many times.

    Actually for oil painting having a nice base of acrylics or enamels provides a good tooth for the oils and helps with transparent colors if the base matches the over coat color.

    I use a crock pot to help speed dry the base coat.
  9. Jeff Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Just a note I have used enamels and oils together when wet. It is possible both use the same thiner. Bill Horan mentioned doing this on horses when he gave a demo at a meeting. I tried it on a project of my own and it worked just fine.
  10. Einion Well-Known Member

    Some ground-up basics on using Vallejo and similar in this recent thread for anyone that missed it, Advice on blending Model Vallejo color paints better.


    Are you trying to actually blend or doing colour transitions with layering?

    Try: putting less on and brushing it out; softer brushes; thinning the paint.

    You could I suppose, but I don't see the need. And I'd think it would only be suitable for rougher surfaces because oil pastels are very thick and pasty.


    Roger that - results are what matter.

    Einion
  11. slohand2 New Member

    Country:
    Singapore
    Hi Einion

    Are you trying to actually blend or doing colour transitions with layering?

    Excuse my terminology, I think it be transitions, as in shading from dark to lighter hues.

    Say for a cape in white, do I start off with the base colour in white and then work in the darker shades until I get the effect ? or do I do the reverse order?

    My problem is that when i thin it down too much, it gets runny, so far i just let it run and fill up the natural gaps where the pigments will gather and it darkens. Of course the result is far from acceptable.

    Hi Gordy,
    The map gives me the idea but those are hard lines, how do I "blend" (using poor terminology again !) that it transits (maybe the right term this time).

    Cheers
  12. Einion Well-Known Member

    You can do it either way. Different people have their own preferences with certain colours, although it's most common to work from a midtone in both directions.

    With white, it's not uncommon to work darker from a solid white undercoat rather than try to slowly build up towards white in layer after layer of very thin paint. But it is perfectly doable from a light-grey basecoat. Personally I can't decide which route I like the most and use them interchangeably. If I'm airbrushing in particular working up from a darker base is no big deal.

    Ah, common problem early on - you have too much of the dilute paint on the brush. Think damp, not wet.

    The mix for a wash or for layering can be the equally dilute, the difference is in how much is on the brush and is then applied to the model. You lay on a thin veil of the colour from a damp brush when layering, you float on a larger amount from a wet brush when doing a wash.

    Re. hard edges in each subsequent layer, they can be thin enough that there's no real edge formed, but you can feather the edge out with a gentle stroking motion (either with the same brush or with another brush just damp with water). Have a look at the thread I linked to above, there are additional tips and links in it with lots more.

    Einion
  13. slohand2 New Member

    Country:
    Singapore
    I think I got it !! Thanks a heap

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