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Accuracy v.s. Artistic

Discussion in 'General Figure Talk' started by Jim Patrick, Jun 2, 2005.

  1. btavis Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    I think what is really the issue relates to "artistic license," which can be perceived as a possible conflict with accuracy if it is used too cavalierly.

    For example, if a director decides to intrepret Hamlet using midget actors for some allegorical purpose then is it defying the accuracy to Shakespeare's work or to the period of history in which it takes place? Or perhaps is the metaphor the director is trying to make more akin to a statement about no matter how significant we mortals believe our life and death dramas to be they are but miniscule events set against the backdrop of a monumentally infinite universe? Only the viewer can decide if this artistic license succeeds.

    Here is a definition of artistic license that is germane.
  2. nagashino New Member

    ...uuuuhhhhh (deep breath)

    This thread has shown one thing above all - that is just how much passion there is in this little hobby of ours.

    In any of the major magazines, each month one can see dozens of figures which have true artistic merit, however not so many can claim to be accurate representations of the "real thing".

    As I see it, we are probably mainly talking about medieval and ancient subjects - those for which "quality" reference is based largely on contemporary artistic conventions, mouldering bits in museums, and (I regret to say) modern published artistic interpretations, a lot of which are purely speculative in their detail.

    Having said that, there are also glaring instances of inaccuracy in work representing more recent history, where reference, be it genuine items or reliable art, is abundant. In all cases my own view is that commercial pressures drive down the level of accuracy in favour of having the next figure "scoop". This is not good for those of us who strive to paint both accurate and artistic pieces, but it is a fact of life - the big manufacturers aren't in the charity business after all.

    I agree with Jim Hockett that the hobby is falling prey to fashion, and perhaps this is in itself both fuelling the artistic and compromising the accurate.

    I'm out......phew, I need a drink

    Phil
  3. Kandor8 Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Oh boy, the old can of worms! This always comes up when two or more painters get together, "Yeah it looks great! But the CSA didn't have that type of canteen!" and off we go. Try being a judge at a show! Talk about self abuse! I judged many times for the Atlanta show and once for the Austin show back in the 80's, it's a thankless task. What do you do, judge the quality of the work or pick the thing apart on historical errors?
    Speaking from a judges point of view, the quality will outweigh the accuracy every time. I would be lost trying to determine if a Napoleonic figure was correct, but I could nail your butt on Civil War or USMC subjects. So, the artistry is primary, from a judges point of view. We have to trust that the artist has done his/her research and what they present it as historically accurate as they could make their offering. If anyone put a figure on display that they KNEW to be inaccurate they deserve the derision they'll receive. Remember, there is going to be SOMEONE out there who knowswhat kind of spurs that a light dragoon wore in 1812 and they won't hesitate to let them and anyone within hearing range know how wrong the figure is! If you want to paint a figure for fun, fine, label it a "What if?" figure or a fantasy figure. Make it clear it is a product of your own imagination and you'll quell the wrath of the "History Squad" The most important thing is overall quality which embraces historical accuracy along with artistry. Come on, even a newbie wouldn't seriously put a BAR in the hands of a Rough Rider! Get the info as right as you can, don't agonize over it and PAINT!

    Boy, it's great to be back! ;)
    Ric
  4. Wlas Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Hollywood uses 'artistic license' which is why we may enjoy a historical epic, but at the same time frown upon the liberties taken with historical accuracy. One would think that with millions of $$$ spent they could at the least get the uniforms right, but this is very, very rare.
    Fortunately for the historical miniaturist we don't have to invest millions. If accurate information is available it must be used or the finished piece is a 'failure'.
    It is simply not complete....regardless of the quality of the painting.
    If no information exists on some ancient people's warriors gear, no reliefs, no written text by a contemporary....then artistic license can rear its head.
    Many years ago when I edited the Guidon for the MFCA I published an issue on Ancients. I included a detailled article about a major historical battle involving the Karthians, complete with a sketch of Order of Battle, and a line drawing of a Karthian cavalryman. I utilized geographical sites that never existed within a hundred years of each other. I listed a bibliography of research books I made up. Using a pseudonym I wrote the article using a tone that implied that everyone reading it should already know this info and if they didn't....they were lacking.
    Of course no one questioned it.
    No one wanted to appear 'lacking'.
    Years later there was an article in Fine Scale Modeler on Sculpting. The figure the writer chose was the well known Karthian Cavalry Noble that he copied from the sketch in the old Guidon.
    I fell off my chair laughing.
    Many wonderfully sculpted figures are produced that are NOT historically accurate.
    We tend to gobble them up, and rarely go the extra mile to question it's accuracies.
    Why?
    Perhaps we don't want to appear 'lacking'.
    Or simply we're forgiving.
  5. stormtrooper New Member

    This is difficult and I'm sorry if I'm repeating but Itype with only one fingure.

    A figure or sculpture is art in itself, well it is to me ,as a manufacturer and sculptor I try to achieve as accurate a figure as is possible in terms of uniform specific details weoponary and known specifics of the period ie hair style etc. The art in the sculpture comes across in the pose atmosphere and persona of the piece, this is what I hope draws people to by my figures. They should have character atitude and dynamics that cant be explained but it draws YOU to buy it in lets face it is a crowded market place.

    the art could be how you want to paint it that is the diversity that is art it is an apreciation of something ,it should be painted in the context of its period and time zone but if you want to paint all your accurate period sculptures pink then thats your artistic preference, they wont be accurate but if you like them so be it .

    In a nutshell the sculpture should be accurate if its historical but should have a character/ its artistic element but the painting is purely the art and beauty is in the eye of the beholder?
    I hope this doesnt offend anybody and its time for more rioja
  6. Uruk-Hai PlanetFigure Supporter

    Country:
    Sweden
    The best is if the subject can be both artisticly and correct. :)

    Artistic is fine as long the creator doesnt claim it to be historically correct, and vice versa.

    Non artistic and non correct is bad.......... :(

    The problem is were one draws the line for historical incorrect. Is it the late canteen model a year to early on a swedish volounteer in Kongo or is it a Sherman tank supporting the Irish Brigade at Fredriksburg?

    What is good art? In the eye of the viewer!

    As long as people are aware of the differences in taste and what we would like to do as individuals with this hobby we should be able to get along and respect each other.

    Some projects I research while others just being painted as they are. Some others are superdetailed after scaledrawings while the next one might lean upon gizmonology.

    This might be a interesting topic to discuss over a lager in Boston. ;)

    Cheers
  7. nagashino New Member

    Hey John - the King's new clothes!

    Let's face it, the market isn't driven by rivet counters, it survives on all those thousands of folk who look, like, and buy, accurate or not. At risk of repeating myself, this is a fashion-driven hobby by and large. There is room for guys like Stuart, Alan, Gary and others and long may they perform, but let's all remember, without all those thousands of Joes out there buying 'cos they like the look of the stuff, there wouldn't be a figure market at all and we'd all be back to scratchbuilding, or converting Britains - hey that's where I came in :lol:
  8. Don Freeman New Member

    This is a very interesting discussion, and all of the contributors have made salient points. I had a discussion very like this with a friend recently over the vividness of color on miniatures.

    There is a painter whose work I admire very much who is master of color. The color on his pieces are always vivid and, usually, quite beautiful. He is a master painter and has won numerous awards, but in spite of his mastery he is generally criticized because of his colors--they are not "accurate" in all cases. Now, they (his colors) are not "prettified" nor are they wrong; the reds are red and the blues are blue, and so on; they just do not fit some people's conception of acuracy.

    At a recent show he and I were discussing the "darkness" of a lot of the exhibits. The technique was generally very good, but the overall effect was a little dark for my tastes. Some time later I looked at the posting from a French show and marvelled at some of the colors. The technique wasn't as flawless in some of the pieces, but overall the colores seemed brighter and more vivid.

    Now vividness in a miniature is a relative thing, depending on subject matter, status of the subject an other factors. If the subject is a Vietnam era soldier in the boonies or goig to or, especially, coming from, there won't be or shouldn't be much brightness to the colors; if the Vietnam subject is on a parade ground or in the headquarters, the colors could be more vivid and bright. Soldiers in the heat of things in the ACW tended to be rather drab, but some of them fro special unts or the officer corps could be as bright as a preening bird. I like to paint Napoleonics because of the praticeof color. I don't have funky those guys, especially the light cavalry, got, but I am sure they got pretty washed out as well.

    A miniature is supposed to be a representation of the real thing; it is, also, a piece of art. We, the eye-balling public and concerned co-conspirators, should be able to appreciate both aspects of the "little guy" (or girl, as the case may be). Sometimes we may vote on the side of "accuracy" and sometimes we see the inaccuracies and still vote on the piece because the "art" is so good. It's all in the eye of the beholder, anyway.

    Those of us who don't sculpt or who don't even do much modification on stock figures are at the mercy of the manufacturers to get the details right. And sometimes we accept minor imperfections because we like the subject, pose, attitude, sculpting, whaterver and the imperfections are minor. Sometime we pass by a subject because the details are wrong and, probably more often, the criteria mentioned above are wrong. I'm looking at a piece now like that: he's ACW and very likely the piece can be criticized for being "inaccurate." I'm not so sure a cavalry officer in the ACW never looked like this, but it probably wasn't common--and not up to "regs." I like the piece and will go ahead on with it and, maybe, I will be pleased with the results--if I can master the art of the thing.

    I talk too much.

    D
  9. Robin Active Member

    Country:
    United-Kingdom
    Ahhh what a topic, the main thing I find about this argument is What is accurate?, you get people banging on about this helmet in this period and that helmet in this period. all the squaddies who frequent this place will tell ya if when on exercise you stood a platoon of men side by side you would see a lot of different configurations of the same kit, not to mention the privatley bought stuff.

    To say a figure is inaccurate can be just as inaccurate itself. In reality we can only guess at most periods of histiry what the soldiers wore, as author will try to prove other authors wrong. It gets my goat when people are so sure that Romans wouldn't have worn that helmet at that battle, as far as I can see if a roman going into battle didn't have a helmet he would have worn the cooking kettle to make him safer. I wish that these so called experts would say " in my opinion this is inaccurate" rather than " that is definatley wrong" as they have very little proof except maybe a few dug up bits of metal and a few wall carvings.

    As for artistic , well its what we all do make things look as close to what WE THINK they should, I think all miniaturists are artists and have the right to express them selves how thye wish even if it does mean SS in pink uniforms.

    My two penneth

    NEXT


    Robin
  10. Manfred Active Member

    John, you hit the nail on the head. That can be a big brake for enthusiasm and creativity.

    In my former modeling club we a had a mate who all he ever showed in 10 years was a fighter aircraft taped together from half a dozen kits because that was the ultimate model. He was a nice and knowledgable mate but nobody ever saw a finished or even primed kit by him in 10 years...

    I try my best in workmanship and historical correctness as I strive for a historical figurine. However I have committed errors in the past. But I still can enjoy a well painted piece anyday (I would not know if some ancient was painted with the right color anyway) or for example take napoleonic aurore colour, everyone does this different.

    However I once saw a french Voltigeur private bust with golden ! epaulettes, that freaked me out I have to admit ;) ...
  11. renarts Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Most points stated so far seem to be aligned with differences in communication of those points and some nuances. My feeling is that the aesthetic can somewhat be lessened if there is an inaccuracy. Its that whole, something just isn't right feeling you get and this, for me can sour my view of a subject.
    In competition, I think this can also make a difference for judges. If there are two superbly painted figures vying for top slot then the more accurate of the two is going to get my vote. It becomes an issue of looking past the painting then and looking into the subject matter and the presenters knowledge of that subject matter. In the modeling arena I would say its the eptime in building and the guy that has one more rivet than you wins.....

    I agree that aestheticly you can be inacurate and still be artistic. Where we run off the path is when we there are blatantly anachronisms that can ruin a "historical" figure. Why put 16thc. herladry on a 13thc. knight? A BAR on a Union Cavalryman? If that is the case, then put it in a fantasy catagory and not in historical. This way it can be judged solely on artistic merit than historical.

    I doubly agree, that the excuse of we weren't there so we don't know is quickly going the way of the dodo. Research and documentation of that research continues to give us more accurate information on periods of history that were too easily written off and the blanks conjecturely or fantasticly filled in before. Sometimes it means cracking more than one book or looking past a google search. I wasn't at Omaha Beach, yet I don't think a soldier dressed as Confederate Dragoon hit the sands and stormed a pillbox with a rebel yell. Yet thats what I think of when I see a conglomeration of 500 years of history on a figure representing a particular period and that excuse is mentioned. If that was a viable argument then I could successfully argue machineguns at the battle of Towton. All the technology for a machine gun was available at that time and being used yet, for some reason, no one put those separate technologies together to help the Lancastrians or Yorkists. Which if that is the case, falls under the same argument. Logical misinformed or poorly informed conjecture and assumption does not work well in history and has caused more problem than good.

    Much of this is moot though, since as has been said already. Art is subjective and relies on the whimsey, tastes and interests of the viewer. One mans art is another's grafitti.

    Mike
  12. quang Active Member

    Country:
    Belgium
    You hit it on the head, Mike.

    In this particular domain of ours (recreating past events through miniature figures), accuracy is an integral part of the aesthetics. In other words, it would not be 'beautiful' (aesthetics) if it's not 'realistic' (accuracy).

    The misunderstanding begins when accuracy is detached from aesthetics and pitted one against the other. Not only we can have one AND the other, but ideally we MUST have one and the other.

    My humble two cents, of course.

    And to paraphrase Mike's conclusion: One man's tart is another's spaghetti. ;)

    Q.
  13. MattMcK. PlanetFigure Supporter

    Hello All-
    My two cents: Doesn't the nature of creating a miniature require innacuracy? I know someone will jump on me for saying this, but the very act of painting in highlights and shadows is a purely aesthetic one. Picture a full size uniform on a soldier. We see shadows and highlights, but they are a product of reflected light, not really there. To be accurate, one would match the base color on a miniature version and let light naturally do its thing, right?

    Of course if one remembers their childhood figures and how bad they looked, we would say no! We all make an aesthetic choice to model light in paint, right?

    Let me harp about female figures too: how many look like actual women? I know my fiance will never look like one of the Phoenix Phollies figures, even though she is aesthetically pleasing to me... Who will create a line of women that is more accurate than aesthetic?

    Matt
  14. Alan Guest

    deleted..
  15. quang Active Member

    Country:
    Belgium
    Oh yes indeed, Alan. (y)

    I 'invented' my Highlander's tartan. I did say so, didn't I?

    Not at all, Alan. :(

    Short of having a genuine contemporary sample at hand, I did a 'reconstruction' based on what I read about the subject: eyewitnesses' reports, contemporary technological state, dyes and weaving techniques available at the time, social status,.... It's no more different – albeit in a much more humble scale– than what 'historical' illustrators like Angus McBride or Richard Hook are doing in 2-D.

    Now it would be another matter if I've chosen a WWI Austro-Hungarian lozenge camouflage pattern just for the fun of it, wouldn't it?

    I never claimed to be 100% accurate but at least I'm trying. :lol:

    Q.
  16. Alan Guest

  17. Steve Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Boy am I glad to see this discussion. I spend time considering this very issue. My view is clouded by my belief that "accuracy" is relative in minature work. Beyond the issues of correct colors, costume cut, weapons, hairstyles, all of that, there is the fact that what we consider to be a well-painted figure requires exaggerations in light and shadow which one does not see in reality. So we tend away from "true" accuracy simply by painting "right". On the other hand, few deviations from accepted standards of costume or uniform, color, arms, etc for a given subject detract from the viewing of a painter's work. I can spot something "not quite right" but still be enthralled by the finish or a given treatment of detail. The first word of the name of the club I belong to is "historical". That covers my PERSONAL approach to the issue; I think historic fidelity within reasonable limits is an inherent responsibility when I paint. I do not think pink and purple autumn pea pattern is worthless just because it is fantasy, it is just not the way I would do it, and honestly not the way I would like to see it done by anyone. But the art of the miniature does not I believe depend upon exhaustingly accurate rendering of a subjects. Thanks! I have needed to get that out for a while!--Steve Scott
  18. Dan Morton A Fixture

    Country:
    United-States
    Since discovering this hobby 3 years ago, I've had more fun with it than a barrel of monkeys. I'm fascinated by the research, enjoy my crude attempts at craftsmanship and could [and do] spend endless hours futzing about on figures. This issue of 'accuracy vs. artistic' seems to keep cropping up and perhaps it should periodically to remind us all the limits and constraints within which we are working.

    On the subject of 'historical accuracy' [with all its subtle shades of connotation....] -the museums sometimes get it wrong! On the 1914-1918 forum not too long ago, one of the correspondents was taking the Imperial War Museum to task for displaying [on a mannikin] some piece of British equipment with parts turned the wrong way out. If professionals whose life's work is staging uniforms, equipment and weapons displays get it wrong, any one of us can discomboborate similarly.

    Do the best research you can, do the best job of sculpting and painting you can and [to quote the silly song] "Don't worry, be happy!" Alternatively I'd like to re-text the song, "Don't be anal retentive!" :lol:

    my 0.5 Euros...

    all the best,
    Dan
  19. Alan Guest

  20. Steve Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    In response to Geoff's inquiry concerning left-handed soldiers, I can only respond for me so this isn't very far back, but my experience was that the military must equip and arm on the basis of majority inclination, thus lefties like meself are left to adapt. Particularly in employment of small arms, being a lefty provided many exciting moments. The M16 series rifle ejects spent brass from the right of the reciever. I shot lefty, so I ended up buttoning the top button of my jacket to avoid having smoking brass down the front. If one expends enough rounds, they will find unprotected flesh. I also found riot control situations with the bayonetted M16 awkward as I was forced to handle the weapon right handed due to my position in the squad. Thank Providence for all concerned I was never called on to wield that weapon for real as my right handed control was tenuous at best. I could probably have avoided stabbing my self but the rest of the squad was in peril.--

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