As the "disruptive Posts " thread was shut without much explaination , I thought that I would open this one to ask a couple of questions if you don't mind .

I have noticed over the last few days that there have been some discussions that have been cut short ( A couple that I would have liked to post on , because they raised interesting points of view ), and wondered if any disruptive posts that may have been removed are anything to do with that ?

If something is truely disruptive , then it's timely to remove them , but on the other hand , I don't think that once a topic is closed, it should be opened again to allow one persion to have a "final say"...if it's closed , it should stay that way .

I guess whgat I am saying is that we are all adults here , and a little bit of discussion should be allowed , I actually think it's quite a good thing tjhat we don't all agree about everything all the time , and it can actually be productive some times to read someone else's view.

Hopefully this is not viewed as a"disruptive " post

PLEASE CLOSE THIS POST!!! Alan called me an adult! Actually I am with you Alan. Seems to me and this is just MY opinion which I like to give freely whether or not people want to hear/read it is that there are quite a few "thin skinned" folks here. To many times the written language is taken out of context or people take offense to some elses' point of view.

If your going to post your opinion or your work and don't like a response, tough, don't post anymore! Find another site! I don't check this site as much as I used to frankly because we all got to far away from why I check this site and that is the common intrest in the hobby and learning from others and trying to get better...If you like eye decals, great, not for me. If you like to spray your figures, great, not for me. If you like a figure that is not histoically accurate either in sculpt or paint job, great don't buy it or don't paint it.

Ok enough rambling. There will always be other sites, there will always be jerks, there will always be masters or novices we can all learn from as long as you have an open mind and they WANT to share. I'll stop now. Happy Modelling!

I must have missed everthing.
Whats the fuzz all about?

Hi Alan

I agree with you completely.

Spotted some odd things going down here over the last few days; comments from the moderating team etc, posts vanishing, posts becoming staff only.

disruptive posts should be dealt with. Period. But some debate is needed from time to time, and I find them fascinating and it always gets me thinking.

I hope this all gets resolved and everyone can stay around.


BTW

I've been sculpting!

Hear, hear!!

Disagreements do not equal personal attacks. People seem to be unaware of this. I can disagree with someone but still respect them and their opinion. I don't see how a discussion of what we like to see in figures is disruptive, but what do I know...

Andy

A 'personal attack' in this Forum is unwarranted. I personally believe that honest opinions of an individuals work should be part of this Forum. If we congratulate everyone's efforts ( or remain silent about them ) how are we to learn?
Constructive criticism of someone's work is NOT a personal attack. It is all part of a wonderful 'open door' to improving our skills.

I have to say that I also agree with Alan's post.......to a point. As Andy stated "Disagreements do not equal personal attacks". To that I would pose a question. How long does the moderating team let a topic go before closing it? I mean, how far is too far? Sometimes a topic can be loaded with pseudo (?) personal attacks. Sometimes a poster (are there any?) can make a habit of attacks or questions that are so thinly veiled that there can be no mistake what was meant by the post. Do topics get trashed before they can actually begin? Sure. But how many different discussion boards have we seen fall by the wayside because of unmoderated forums? Too many. To the point that Alan made about us all being human and that we (naturally) should never agree all the time, I agree whole hearitidly! To that I'd add just how heavy handed should a moderator be when closing a post? Should he let it go on for awhile then close or close it before it all begins and have the site known throughout the web a (relatively) clean forum? There are tradeoffs and consequences to both. I presonally think a "discussion" (even crititism) should continue as long as it is directed AT the project (figure) and NOT THE PERSON.Now in closing I'd like to add just a few more of my own personal thoughts. While we do all have the inate right to speak our minds in public (regardless of our opinion for the most part), we most certianly do not have the right to speak our minds when in someone elses house. In case there is some miscommunication here, the web is not public. We are here in Gordy's house and should behave accordingly. If there is no legal basis to my last statement, then certianly, it's the ADULT thing to do. Now if we could all just remember that we are the adults and act like said adult, there would only be about half the problems we have now. Stepping down from the soap box.........

Jim Patrick

Wise words, Jim!

A forum is NOT a model of democracy.

It's a BANQUET in which we all are guests. We don't own the house (we don't even pay the rent). Nobody invited us in. We came in by our own free will and thanks to the kind hospitality of the hosts.

As self-invited guests, we don't have any right to demand anything from our hosts. The least we can do is to obey the house rules set up by the hosts to insure a good and pleasant company among the guests.

Now when a group of loud individuals barge in, bullying the passive company and disrupting the peace, the least the hosts can do is to take the proper measures to restore the peaceful mood.

Now we might find these measures biased and unfair, our hosts unsympathetic and dictatorial, then nobody can prevent us to bow out and leave the table.

We would do so quietly, without bravado and without whining. That's what I call 'freedom'.

Things are so simple when you do it simply.

Quang

It becomes a personal attack when our egos bruise easily.

ahhhh but who is to say what bruises whose ego or to what a person should take offence at, something that may seem trivial to you may be rather large to the person whose ego is bruised.

As stated we are all human and there fore have tolerances for different things. A moderator has to take all into account, is it not better to stop anything that might be scathing or ego bruising.Who is to say wether the moderator didnt recieve a pm to ask the thread to be closed.

Maybe it is time to say rather than asking the people who have been written about to stop having a ego that is bruised easily but to ask the people who are posting to think about the consequences of thier wording of thier post before actually posting it.

Robin

One must respect the forum administrator, his efforts and his "home" so to speak. One must also respect other members of the forum and not purposely start trouble with the veiled attacks pointed out by Jim.

On the same token, other forums, do not delete (as this one did not early on) posting or close them, yet they still maintain control and decorum. Frustration, anger, and non sense is kept to a minimum. The people who start trouble purposely are not "protected" by the hosts-but rather dealt with by the membership.

One does not have to come here. Some people come here to learn (probably most) and share. Some come to teach. Some come to Shoot the breeze with friends. Some come here to stroke their egos - or sell their wares. We all do think of things differently and to Robin's point what is the limit? But to close things because they "could" become troublesome, is troublesome.

Okay , we are adults ........and this is aimed at no-body in particular ( though in the current climate here I suppose that someone may well decide to take it that way)

Why do some people use an "angry voice " in their heads to read posts and imediately get insulted ?
Why don't people phrase what they want to say better ?

Why not try and read a post without looking for the insult and trying to figure out how to respond with another.

Being adult also means being able to actually read something and see it for what it is ...whether good or bad ...insulting or full of false praise ...as adults we should be able to raise ourselves above either .

as "Guests " in anyones "house" you don't go looking for insults in every word, just as you don't throw them in every sentence.
from what I have seen , if you start out looking for insults most of the time you miss the sometimes valid points being made......... ( maybe not as well as they could be , but not everyone is able to phrase what they want to say in a way that suits all tastes ...I'm not sure that anyone can by the way ).

Differences of opinion are valid, and admissable in any discussion as far as I can see, no-one has the right to jump on anyone elses opinion ( as a "guest someones house ")....which seems to be happrening more and more.

before you know it , there will be "Them and us" factions and the only posts admissable will be a sterile " nice job ...super", the only other option being silence .

Can we have a little give and take , and a little maturity ?

or not ...........,

I personally would agree with most everything said here. I actually have no problem with posts being yanked, or threads halted. Sometimes, people have to take a stand.

We all have peeves. Sometimes it takes little to set people off. Some tend to be a more hot-tempered individuals, and when in a bad mood, can be even more so.

I know when I see a double standard being perpetrated, and them am personally called out by another member for pointing it out, I will not back down. I have a zero tolerance for BS, insincerity, and back-end smooching.

There is no doubt that this site has its "clique," and if you are not in it, well, then heaven help you, as those people band together to defend each other, no matter the cost or consequence, and I apologize, but this is a peeve of mine, and it always will be.

If anyone here has a problem with me, they are free to e-mail me or send an IM, and perhaps it can be worked out. If any of the staff members wish to suspend my membership at any time, a simple e-mail notification will do the trick. After all, I am a guest, and I understand that.

Otherwise, we should all be treated equally, whether in the “clique” or not.

Everyone raises very good points here as always.

I am currently speaking of myself for myself and no one else. So to Alan's point don't look for insults - THERE ARE NONE INTENDED but read this in the hope that you might look at things differently.

Perhaps In my mind things are too simple. When I see a problem I identify the problem, and attempt to address it. I refuse to play a game of subtle innuendo-I'm not the smart, nor do I have enough time to think up subtle prose and innuendo to make anohter person look silly simply to gain satisfaction from it. And BTW-I know what my faults are, know that I get angry and I know I don't give up too easily.

It is one thing to disagree with others-even passionately disagree. A good example is the old History vs art argument-one can agree to disagree and respect the other side-it can even fall into an argument - passion about something always produces emotions. BUt one can walk away from those arguments and not HATE eachother personally or try to consistently provoke them. I argued with Dani last week-do I dislike him now? No, DO I not respect him or his right to have his view? No. He may feel differently, but as far as I am concerned- I actually admire his passion. We both took that argument too far.

Quang raises the "loud mouthed bullies"-but who is the loud mouthed bully? the one who simply gets angry, or the one who quietly provokes the argument in the first place simply to create troiuble because it stumulates them in some way? WHo is the one that is "deleted", "Banned" or "removed"? Or which one should "bow out gracefully". DO I decide? Does Quang decide? Does ALan decide?Does Guy Decide? Do we have a vote? Gordy, as the forum owner is the ultimate arbiter, but what should he do? Logic dictates if you have two weeds crawling towards eachother threateining your lawn, you kill BOTH weeds-even the "pretty" one. These disagreements happen everywhere. The membership itself usually weeds out who they don't like.

Robin raised the point about "the ego line"-how far is that line ? and he's right-we don't know. But we need to differentiate between a "personal attack" and "addressing someone personally" to Alan's point. What strikes me is that we seem to be ok with raising issues with someone's figure if they are not here to address those views-however If we dare raise concerns about someone's work to their face, addressing them personally it is seen as a personal attack. It seems like we tiptoe and not use eachother's names so as not to offend? Why? To me that inidcates distrust and lack of respect.

I make no secrets about my positions on certain matters. I don't write eloquently-or subtly, or in innuendo-I write directly. I write to the person I am speaking to. I don't play games and pretend to be positive when I heartily disagree with something. If asked, I will give a critique of work (note not criticism, critique-anyone who ever went to art school knows they can be scathing in "real life"). If I don't like someone I don't pretend to in order to keep the peace. I won't attack first, but if attacked-even very subtly- I will defend myself vehemently. I may not always be "nice" but I am not a hypocrit. Yet, here I find all of the qualities I grew up admiring, admonished by a select few.

Again, this was written about me, for me-I really don't much care about what the reaction is anymore, I for one am sick of fighting over what? Bragging rights to an online forum about figure painting? Selling a few commissions that buy me a few good dinners? I respect most of the people on this forum-your talents, your personalities, your honesty. The remainder in my view can enjoy their little chunk of happiness/bitterness on their own. At the end of the day I have my family, my firends, my art, my work and my sprawling 20 acre estate :lol: just kidding, had to lighten it up a bit!

To Gordy, I say thanks. To Guy, I say sorry-but cut the remove the "auto delete" key :lol: and to the rest of you I say thanks!

Cheers and regards!

Lou

PS-Damn, that was long! Sorry And be advised, unless I am kicked out, this was not a farewell I'm taking my toys and leaving speech, just my views on what to me has been a painful experience - and most of you don't even know what I am talking about!

Now that everyone has had a chance to pee on the fire I shall close this topic. I will enforce the rules of this forum in the manner Gordy has dictated to me and if anyone does not like this action.........then please feel free to leave and go to another forum. If any other threads are started then they will be deleated and moved to staff area. I have had enough of this crap and waste of alot of people's valuable time.