Isn't most of Ebay full of pirated kits and recasts? I must see a new one or two everyday. How does anyone stop them, except maybe to stop buying from them. I'm sure they get lots of business by selling recasts at half the price of the original. It's basically pirating, but it is also done by a number of reputable people, some even legitimate manufacturers. I can't count how many times I've seen Imrie Risley figures and kits passed off as anonymous figures and artillery
pieces. Imrie Risley is still in business though the owner is in her 80's now so not only are these people ripping off the company, but an old woman of her livelihood. I won't name names as I am no snitch, these people know what they are doing and no lecture from me will ever stop them from profiting at theft: Blackbeard didn't stop because of a guilty conscience, he was hung. So all of these so called "dealers" that reproduce in tin, resin or whatever they can are still in business because someone is buying from them. It's those people who need the attack of conscience; like the shame the John's campaign that went after the clients and not the hookers. Worked like a charm. You know who you are.

At the risk of opening a debate that has been aired before on Planet there is another side to this-With the UK asking price for a Pegaso 90mm Mounted figure now at £212-their latest offering of two duelling mounted figures would amount to £450 including a decent base before you apply any paint. The danger is that it is becoming a rich mans hobby in times when our incomes are being squeezed, for some the only recourse is to the re-casters. I am not defending the practise but admit to buying one or two recasts about 3 years ago, the problem is that any defects in the original casting such as seam lines are replicated and added to in the recast,(Buyers beware) I decided that they just were not worth the bother and have only bought Manufacturer pieces since, however I am in the fortunate position of being able to do this. I am therefore reluctant to pour scorn on those less fortunate individuals who have been caught up in economic conditions not of there own making but have a love of the hobby.
Ebay is also a wonderful source of 2nd hand kits and older discontinued material as well as a source of painted figures that can be stripped and repainted, in that context I take exception to the first line of your post which is certainly not true. I have identified so far 8 prolific recasters on Ebay and avoid buying from them.
Gordy has decreed that we do not name and shame them on Planet, I personally think we should but there may be a legal situation to be aware of here so I respect his wishes.

Keith

It's up to the copyright owner to enforce his/her rights. But, we can contribute by not buying knock-offs. It's a very limited market; and if we all exercised some discipline they'd be out of business in no time. It's all about the money.

Actually, the same holds true for the manufacturers - if you find the prices too high; then don't buy. These items are not life necessities; they are luxuries. It's no excuse that the cost might be considered high for some.

I'm sorry but if the manufacturers are too lazy to stamp this out on Ebay (and I know of two who have taken the trouble to do this) then I can only assume that they are quite satisfied that it is not having a detrimental effect on their Market, or they don't own the property rights to their products.
Perhaps there is room for both, either way I refuse to take a holier then thou attitude to those who love the hobby but are forced to buy from recasters. Yes it is a luxury, but for some people an important life line and a way of expressing their talents at what ever level.

I agree wholeheartedly that Ebay is not at fault; I have been and enjoyed being a member since it began back in the early 90's - and have bought many wonderful kits I would otherwise never have found - it has however become a haven for people (who openly declare themselves merchants) who contribute to the darker side of this hobby. Theft is theft and whether the cost of kits is prohibitive or not, it shouldn't condone supporting a knock-off industry. The cost control lies with the manufacturers only. It is their craft and production needs that sets a price for the kit. It is an expensive industry which translates to an expensive hobby. If the manufacturers start to lose customers then their business and production practices would have to change, which would hopefully reduce cost. But it is what it is. When I was newer to the hobby and not familiar with all the manufacturers I thought all of the tin figures on Ebay were a steal (which they turned out to be). I bought several and it was not until much later that I discovered they were knock-offs of Andrea and Pegaso: then I wondered how the seller got away with being so open about it? Any search through Ebay on almost any item will bring up knock-offs. Ebay allows the sellers a great deal of anonymity, as they are scattered all over the world, and work from obscure email addresses and websites. The music and film industry can't stop pirating no matter how much they threaten people. The only problem in all of this is that in time the hobby will erode and the manufacturers - who are losing profits - will find it hard to maintain production. For us that means higher costs, or no kits at all. I just say be watchful and respectful.

Hi Michael, please don't think I am condoning recasters, rather I am trying to point out why they exist. I suspect that the person buying a 90mm mounted Pegaso on Ebay is not the same person who would pay £212 for the genuine article, it begs the question does the manufacturer suffer as a result? are some people part of the hobby who couldn't afford it otherwise? I really don't know how the manufacturers are doing but judging by the number of new releases and new companies springing up there is obviously enough support at the top end of the hobby without recasters being a major concern.

Thank you Keith.

Legal issues and grey areas are indeed are hazard points, I have seen some Ebay stores selling both legitimate and pirated products, targeting those are even more dodgy since the pirate can claim ignorance.

A second more important reason, in my estimation, for not naming pirates publicly is to not give the pirates additional free advertising through links on the planet to their ebay 'stores'.

During the peak of the day there are almost 900 folks online here on the planet:



The last thing I wish to do is to give these pirates any extra attention.

Hey Keith,

Not assuming at all. I respect and enjoy your opinion fully. I have been on both sides of the argument: I work in a creative industry and I understand what it takes to create. I tend to put myself in the creators shoes (we are all creative in this hobby) and picture what it would be like to see my creation (or a very good facsimile), posted on Ebay, at a much lower price than I would offer it at to get back my time and expense. Now if those sold more than mine I'd be a bit more than upset about it. I'm sure Pegaso and Andrea have better things to do than to try and chase down every recaster that pops his head out of the hole, but for us who are the customers it warrants some special concern.

I'm all for saving money (who isn't?) and I also think the high price of models is definitely a barrier for people trying to get into the hobby. Yes, the prices of figures has gone up, but I'd say so has the quality. If we give business to recasters we make it harder for honest businesses to continue to produce new figures. I think if people who are serious about this hobby don't make the extra effort to verify that the figures they buy are legitimate then it does damage to the community as a whole. Large companies like Pegaso and Andrea might not see a significant dent in their profits, but widespread recasting could make it very difficult for small producers to survive.

When I was just getting into the hobby I unknowingly bought from a recaster on ebay. Since then I've been much more careful about who I buy from. If the kit doesn't come with the original box then I think that is a major red flag. You can also see where the seller is from and make whatever assumption you want from there. More often than not I end up either ordering from Red Lancers or Colorado Miniatures and just avoid ebay altogether.

I know people in this community report recasters to the manufacturers when they find them. While a good portion of the policing can be done by the original producers, it is also the responsibility of those of us who know better to avoid giving the pirates our business. I like to think of the extra money I spend as an investment in the hobby, making sure there will be many more great figures in the future.

I bought a camera card of Ebay (£60) that was a fake, contacted the seller who I totted up had sold over £50,000 worth of goods on Ebay and told them it was a fake, they offered a refund, I said I have the hand written envelope with their return address, the fake goods and the reciept and I want what I paid for a genuine card, otherwise the Police and Trading standards in the UK would be my first call and with £50,000 worth of sales expect a bang at the door, they asked me where they could buy one!!! I pointed them to Amazon and they paid (£80) to have the genuine article shipped direct to me from them, when I had it, I returned their rip off and let it drop.....

Pat is absolutely right. BOYCOTT the seller. I look for a deal as much as the next person but if you have been in the hobby for more than 10 minutes you know if the sale is legit or a knock-off by the price, casting material or country of source.

I think it's a little harsh to say that the manufacturers/copyright owners are too lazy to stamp this out. Enforcement can be very expensive and involve international agencies and all sorts of very expensive processes to stop the pirate legally. Even our larger figure manufacturers are very small businesses, and do not have the resources - or the time - to pursue the pirates in every place they operate. Moreover, some countries have a policy of encouraging - or at least ignoring - piracy and make it even harder for owners to enforce their rights. I have heard - perhaps here - that even enforcement through Ebay can be very difficult for an owner. At the very least, strict enforcement of copyrights will drive up (quite a bit!) the cost of figures for us. I think manufacturers are trying to stirke a balance between keeping prices as they are now and raising prices to launch a vendetta against every pirate they find. But they depend on us to buy from legitimate sources. BTW, legitimate dealers are also hurt when you buy from a pirate. The dealers and manufacturers are our friends! I think they deserve better treatment and a bit of loyalty.

The simpliest and most cost-effective way to stop piracy is simply: Don't buy the pirates' wares. Any other excuse is simply a rationalization for doing something wrong and placing you own welfare above that of the manufacturer and dealer. If you care about figures and those who make them for us, you should be eager to support buying only legally made figures; and at least avoid, if not drop a dime on, the pirates. Yes, you may be free (kinda!) to buy from pirates, but that does not make it right. No one is "forced" to buy anything. If you are unhappy with manufacturer's prices, then tell them so - and don't buy the product. Buying from pirates as "revenge" will end up putting the manufacturer and its dealers out of business; and deny all of us the chance to buy future figures in what may well be the golden age of figure quality and availability. If we as customers want continued choice in our figures we need to act responsibily and support only sellers of legitimate products. Same goes for the dealers. Dealers cannot survive if we buy from pirates.

Please note that I'm not attacking you personally; just responding to your arguments. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I hope this discussion causes all to think - regardless of who they agree with.

I will say it again--we have to do both. Sure, boycott the seller. But make the effort to contact the original manufacturer, if you can. And then, as Pat pointed out, it's up to him. And no, he's not lazy, if he chooses not to pursue it. He has to weigh the costs on both sides and decide whether it's worth it. But we need to let the original makers know.