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WIP Critique 1st Bavarian Heavy Cavalry Lancer - 1914

Discussion in 'vBench (Works in Progress)' started by Dan Morton, Feb 15, 2015.

  1. Ulrich A Fixture

    Country:
    Germany
    Dan. First some helpful drawings.

    Attached Files:

  2. martin tabony Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Most of my reference is for full dress but I'll kep digging till I find the feldgrau.
    In German regiments, the NCO's rank insignia was a band of flat metalic lace in the button colour (white for the 1st). This was worn at the top edge of the "Swedish" cuff and at edge of the collar. In full dress the lace was at the top edge of the high collar, but the field grey uniform had a fold down collar, so it was at the bottom. Also a button with an heraldic badge was worn on the collar, in line with the shoulder strap button.The also carried a lance pennon with a state device.
    In the pictureof the sergeant's uniforms, no4 is the Swedish cuff.
    I thought I would include all of the state pennons. I know I shouldn't write on bucks, but sometimes you need to.
    I realise your covering the pickelhaube but I included this because it's beautiful!!

    Attached Files:

  3. martin tabony Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Ulrich, nice drawings, for what book?
    Martin
  4. Ulrich A Fixture

    Country:
    Germany
    Whats the difference between pennon and pennant for a non-english? I know it under pennant.

    And here the Feldrock M 1909 for an NCO from the "Bayrischen Schweren Reiter". After 1916 all red piping were changed into yellow. The stripes on the right arms are the signs for "Lanzenfechten"

    Attached Files:

    • NCO.jpg
      NCO.jpg
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  5. Ulrich A Fixture

    Country:
    Germany
    Martin: From the books "Die feldgraue Uniformierung des deutschen Heers 1907 - 1918" from Jürgen Kraus
  6. martin tabony Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Ulrich, it's nice to know what the parts are called in German. It's difficult to find detailed information when I speak very little. When I was in Germany as a young soldier "Ein grosse bier, bitte" was the most import thing to know! :)
    ChaosCossack and captnenglish like this.
  7. martin tabony Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Specialist badges

    Attached Files:

    captnenglish likes this.
  8. Ulrich A Fixture

    Country:
    Germany
    Same Problem here when I am searching something in english and know only the german special word. But I am learning ;) And "Ein grosses Bier, bitte" is very important here. That I know in english, french and spanish and and and
  9. Dan Morton A Fixture

    Country:
    United-States
    What superb references! Thanks Martin and Ulrich! Invaluable!

    Ulrich - The M1909 photo doesn't show a button on the collar. Is that just missing? Since you guys have been to so much trouble to provide these references, the least I can do is use them all to get things historically right.

    Many thanks and no more questions, I promise!

    All the best,
    Dan
  10. martin tabony Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Dan, I think Ulrich will confirm this, It goes just braid, then braid and a small button, braid and a larger button, then braid, large button and an extra line of braid on the sleeve. I hesitate to give the ranks in case I spell them wrong and Ulrich could do so much better! :)
  11. Ulrich A Fixture

    Country:
    Germany
    Now the Problem starts with german and english. The german "Sergeant" has a button and the stripes at the collar. The "Unteroffizier" ( I think NCO) has only the stripes in silver or Gold at the collar. The "Gefreiter" has only the button at the collar and nothing else there. Don´t know exact what rank "Gefreiter" or "Sergeant" or "Unteroffizier" is on englisch. Wikipedia says that the "Gefreiter" is usually the second rank or grade to which an enlisted soldier, airman or sailor could be promoted. "Sergeant" is the next rank after "Unteroffizier" and "Unteroffizier" must be NCO (I hope)
  12. Dan Morton A Fixture

    Country:
    United-States
    Ulrich: Web stumbling years ago, I found this excerpt from the Chicago Daily News War Book ca. 1918 or 1919. Does it look right? I presume there was no difference between Prussian or Bavarian NCO rank insignia.

    All the best,
    Dan

    Attached Files:

  13. Ulrich A Fixture

    Country:
    Germany
    That is not correct I fear. Attached a modern comparison between german and english ranks. Have a look here http://www.rk-marine-kiel.de/infos/bundeswehr/allgemein/englisch/ So the english Sergeant could be the german Unteroffizier, but your Sergeant Mayor seems to be a higher rank as the german "Sergeant" or "Feldwebel"

    You find in the german army during 1914 - 1918 Schützen, Husaren (that means Privates), then Gefreite (Private E-2 in the link-list) and as the next "Unteroffizier" = NCO or Sergeant. And then after the german "Sergeant" or "Feldwebel" is would be difficult, because some ranks have the sign as "Sergeant" and have Special Buttons at the tunic or have a Special bajonet or or or. It is not easy on old photos to recognize the correct rank of a german soldier.
    martin tabony likes this.
  14. Ulrich A Fixture

    Country:
    Germany
    Dan. If you use the braid or the braid with a button you have two different ranks but both ranks have the Special pennant which Roger and Martin had shown. Perhaps I find in my books a correct list
    martin tabony likes this.
  15. Ulrich A Fixture

    Country:
    Germany
    Found in one of the books "Imperial german field uniforms and Equipment" following

    Enlisted Men
    Schütze = Soldier
    Gefreiter = Private
    Unteroffizier = Lance Corporal

    Non-Commissioned officers
    Sergeant = Corporal
    Vizefeldwebel = Staff Sergeant
    Feldwebel = Company Sergeant Major
    Etatmäßiger Feldwebel = Regiment Sergeant Major

    Company Officers
    Offizier-Stellvertreter = Acting Officer
    Feldwebel-Leutnant = Sergeant Major Leutnant
    Leutnant = 2nd Leutnant
    Oberleutnant = Leutnant
    Hauptmann = Captain
    martin tabony likes this.
  16. Ulrich A Fixture

    Country:
    Germany
    In the book they forgot the ranks = Fähnrich (between Sergeanten and Vizefeldwebel), and Portopee-Fähnrich between Vizefeldwebel and Feldwebel
    martin tabony likes this.
  17. billyturnip A Fixture

    Country:
    England
    The problem with equivalent ranks in books is some are compared to US ranks and others to British, which in some cases don't even equate to each other. Where there is no equivalent some authors, particularly ones years ago, just make a guess or leaves them out completely.
    Confused? You should be. :confused:
    martin tabony likes this.
  18. martin tabony Well-Known Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Personally I would go for the silver braid, it's the most obvious difference to a trooper and you get the state arms on the pennon without having to worry about buttons and sword straps etc. It's nice to know all the differences but it's easy to get bogged down in details and not crack on with the figure. I've done it! :)

    Martin
    billyturnip likes this.
  19. Dan Morton A Fixture

    Country:
    United-States
    Silver braid on the stand up collar - done! Cheers Ulrich, Roger and Martin!

    All the best,
    Dan
    martin tabony likes this.
  20. Ulrich A Fixture

    Country:
    Germany
    The braid is very good and ok. But I fear our Bavarians are a Special Group. They had not only silver. In that braid they have a pattern with light blue and silver. I have photos in my book. Perhaps your painter should use better Gold as you can see on the photo

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