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WIP Greek Pair fighting

Discussion in 'Digis - Digital Miniatures 3D Modeling' started by Ethan, Apr 9, 2014.

  1. Ethan Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    I haven't had a chance to sculpt in a few months, graduating college and getting a job took some serious time so this week I finally decided to break some ground and get back into it with the beginnings of a set of figures I have always wanted to do.

    So in the beginning of the movie Troy, the armies gather together and choose champions to fight for them. In that scene, Brad Pitt runs at a giant, jumps into the air and stabs him through the upper shoulder and into his heart. I have always wanted to sculpt this scene so after a few nags from friends I am doing it.

    The printed scale will be 1:8 = 6 feet. Two figures with a close-ish approximation of that scene from Troy.

    Here is the block out of the giant character. To be honest I probably only have an hour or two left on the body but probably 2 hours for the hands and 2 hours for the feet, plus I'm a bit rusty so the face may take a few hours to get to an impression I like. I am going to try to get a couple hours a day into this and will post up after every sculpting session.

    Thanks for looking!

    4914LRGpersp.JPG

    4914LRGfront.JPG 4914LRGback.JPG

    Attached Files:

  2. ChaosCossack A Fixture

    Country:
    Canada
    Awesome musculature!
    The scene you're planning is a great scene. I look forward to your progress on this.

    Colin
    Ethan likes this.
  3. Wings5797 A Fixture

    Country:
    France
    A fine figure of a man.
    I always like your work Ethan and this one will look great as you work through the details.
    Looking forward to watching this duo progress.
    Best regards,
    Keith
    Ethan likes this.
  4. Ethan Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Thanks guys I really appreciate it!

    So last night I worked through the muscles on the body again with a bit better reference for the back and I also began work on the hands. Hands are hard!! This weekend I would like to flesh the hands and feet and work the face proportions to prepare to pose the giant in his place so pics will come soon! I plan to over-emphasize the major details so the 3D printer will print at a higher level of realism given expansion etc. etc.
  5. RKapuaala Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    excellent start. Question, when you say 1:8= 6 feet does that mean the figure is 8 inches tall? In model railroading 1:8 means 1 inch = 8 inches so a 6 foot figure would equal 9 inches.
  6. Ethan Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    You are correct it is the generic 1:8 scale so a 6 foot figure (being Brad Pitt's figure) in this scenario would be approx 9 inches tall standing up and the giant which I am going to make at around 7 foot tall for added drama will be approx 10.5 inches tall. I know in the scene the barbarian dude was a wrestler? but I think going for more accuracy I will research some giant warrior stuff from that time period and use more historical influence. The same will go for Brad's armor. I have tons of books on Greek and Roman weaponry so I should be able to produce some high accuracy there as well! I would guess this sculpture, when finished, will stand about 17 inches tall; give or take and inch or so.
  7. RKapuaala Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Can't wait to see it.
  8. Ethan Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    So this weekend turned out to be pretty busy so I was only able to do one session on the giant. Basically his hands are blocked out but nothing even worth zooming in on at this point so here is an update on the base anatomy of the body which is pretty much ready for posing. the specs on the face are some kind of error in the quick render, nothing sculptural.

    41014persp.JPG

    41014back.JPG
    ChaosCossack likes this.
  9. ChaosCossack A Fixture

    Country:
    Canada
    As a newb to this medium I will be driving you nuts with stupid questions...

    First... Now that the mannaquin is built, do you manipulate it (like a jointed figure) to pose him?
    Second... When you pose the figure, do you have to adjust the muscles individually to suit the motion/pose or are they anchored to the substucture and move according to the position of the "skeleton"? ie, if you bend the arm at the elbow, does the bicep shorten automatically or do you have to adjust it to the new position?

    Thanx in advance, I'm still trying to understand the process involved in creating a dynamic pose (like the ones you intend here) from a static mannaquin.

    Colin

    PS- Try to keep it as "low tech" as you can... I'm still at a kindergarten level when it comes to computer speak :sorry:
    garyhiggins and Ethan like this.
  10. Ethan Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    That is a great question Colin and I will try to use as many sculptural terms as possible ;). Let me try to explain the basic process including the pose and we shall see if all of it makes sense.

    First I have to sculpt the base mesh or mannequin. There are a few ways to do this. I can use a simple humanoid shape that is provided by the sculpting program (Zbrush) or I can start from a sphere and build it out in a general sense like a sculptor would. Similar to a drawing program I am given a variety of "brushes" to use to build forms; I have a clay tool that adds clay, a smoothing tool to smooth it down, a raking tool, needle pointed tools for valleys etc. etc. and as I sculpt I try to use the same methods I would if I was sculpting in clay, to build out the forms. Unlike traditional sculpting with epoxy or sculpy, I can use this mesh over and over again once I feel the anatomy is perfect. This is one way digital sculpting can be faster than traditional sculpting. Also I get the freedom of (CTRL-Z) allowing me to back up if I screw up, most of the time I end up just smoothing the clay and starting over again. Another benefit of sculpting this way is working in what is called (Symmetry). this allows me to sculpt on one side of the figure and the same action is repeated on the other side so I only have to get one side perfect. There is lot's of time saved here but it is also a double-edged sword as I will explain later!

    So the mannequin is complete. At this point I have to really think about my next steps. The reason for this is that as soon as I pose the figure in an a-symmetrical position I can no longer work with the trick of symmetry and will have to sculpt every part of the body just like the traditional sculptor. For this figure I will definitely sculpt the likeness in the face and I am considering creating some of the armor for the Achilles figure in areas like the arms and legs that will be moved, saving me the time of positioning them later. I will have to combine the parts for posing so they all move at once. For example, I make a pair of greaves; I have to attach them to the figure for posing but luckily the program remembers they were not always part of the mesh and I can detach them later! So I think hard and create all of the other parts or forms that I think I need to have complete before posing. Now I am ready to pose.

    Posing can be done in multiple ways. In Zbrush I can mask out the entire body for example, except for the arms starting at the shoulder joint. This will freeze all parts of the body but those arms and I can move them using the tools Move and Rotate. As I do this the figure will distort at the joint. There is nothing you can do about it and that is why so much thought has to be put into when to pose and how much detail to put in while the figure is symmetrical. I then use the same combination of Masking, Move and Rotate at all joints in the body that I wish to move to get the figure into position. The muscles will not react well to this method of posing most likely. I will then break out the anatomy books and focus on each movement I made to re-sculpt the muscular forms into there correct orientations and levels of stress. Again, at this point I can no longer use symmetry to only sculpt one side of the figure but I also don't want to. The problem most first time digital sculptors run into is the simplicity of sculpting with symmetry but they don't realize they are creating a dead looking creature with no life in it's bones. I will go over the entire figure, making sure that nothing is the same on either side, doing the same with the face as I add more detail and more detail. This process has to be done no matter how the figure is posed. I can also take the figure into another program and actually place a skeleton of bones and joints, attaching them to muscles and sculpted joints, which I can then move with ease but this is a tedious and technical process that also breaks the connection of my figures base form and it's fine details. So not only do I have to (Rig) bones and joints but then I still will have squishing and pushing in places I don't want and I have also lost all of my fine detail from exporting a simplified version of the figure into another program. This is not a good method for sculpture or 3D printing. I learned it in school for movies and games but the processes are very different for characters using in film and ones used for sculpture.

    So that is the basic method for preparing a mannequin and posing the figure. After that I spend my time adding accessories and details until I am satisfied with the life of the character. Then I have to break apart each figure into cast and print worthy pieces, add keys and key-holes and finally make sure each piece is fully water tight (no holes) otherwise it won't print correctly. Then we get technical with printer settings and orienting the pieces in the proper way for the best print quality.

    For a professional digital sculptor this entire process to this point can take a week at most. For me in evening hours who knows! But this is only the beginning of the process to make a kit worthy piece from digital prints. We all know 3D printing creates layer marks and only companies like Ownage can print a cast and kit worthy print that I have seen right from the printer. I do not farm my printing out to any company because I want to touch each piece and learn to work with each issue on my own. I have a good printer on order and I have owned 2 in the past that performed marginally. From those experiments my post production process has been altered.

    First the prints are cleaned from any support systems that hold the piece off the printing table. For us, we use a water soluble plastic for those supports that we can then soak and remove. Then the pieces must be tested to fit together properly with no gaps. This testing process may involve having to print parts again but after the cost of the printer each part will cost almost nothing for me at home. Finally all the parts fit. Now we look at the quality of the prints. My hope is the new printer will not show signs of layering under a coat of primer, however I am expecting this will not be the case. Lucky for me I have a small molding and casting station at the house and I can use waste material to make molds of these printed parts and cast them in CX5 which is a hybrid wax. From here it's all traditional! I can sand and smooth what needs to be smoothed and tool any details I feel are necessary that did not print well. Again, I hope most of this process is not necessary because of the added time before proper molding but if not then it has to be done. Once each part is cleaned and detailed I test fit again and if everything works I now have a Master Sculpt! I will then personally mold and cast each figure, hopefully using stone powders with my resins to create a solid and professional figure kit. At this point we are done and I hope I have made a 1/8 scale figure that people wouldn't even know was digitally created!

    Please feel free to ask me any questions as this was a really basic overview and I skipped a tremendous amount of detail!
    garyhiggins, balder and ChaosCossack like this.
  11. ChaosCossack A Fixture

    Country:
    Canada
    That actually made sense!
    I appreciate you taking the time to explain this process, as up til now I haven't been able to picture how this whole 3d thing works. Obviously this is but the tip of the iceberg but it certainly gives me something to work with. Now I can check out the threads here and at least follow the gist.

    I will be following the progress of this project as I love that scene from "Troy"

    Cheers

    Colin
    Ethan likes this.
  12. Ethan Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    So quick update. I began posing the Giant figure last night and I think it will take a full two sessions to get him in the right place. There will definitely be a lot of sculpting to do afterwards! Tonight I plan on getting Achilles sculpted out so I can pose him at the same time as I finish the Giant.

    So at work yesterday I printed an arm off the giant to test the quality of detail I will need to be able to achieve worth-while prints. I am very impressed! Our printer at work is a Makerbot Replicator 2x and can print down to 100 microns per layer which is pretty standard for home printers. However this is 4 times WORSE than the printer we have on order which can get down to 25 microns! From what I can see, the print really turned out well. The layers are almost unrecognizable and the only real issues were the thumb and fingers which had a hard time printing at more extreme angles and since I used no supports the printer had to work hard to get those out. From this I can see I will need to etch my form details probably double what this original was and that should provide a really nice print; plus adding supports and the 4x better resolution will make a dramatic difference! I plan to continue tests like this until the new printer arrives and I can start testing for real.

    WP_20140415_008.jpg

    WP_20140415_009.jpg WP_20140415_010.jpg WP_20140415_011.jpg
    ChaosCossack likes this.
  13. Ethan Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Last night I was able to get the two characters posed together. I am stoked about the Achilles posed and Satisfied with the Giant's pose. Hopefully as I resculpt all of the anatomy I will love the Giant's pose more but I imagine some tweaking will be necessary.

    So I would have taken some screen shots last night but the anatomy of the models was horribly altered with the moving and stretching, posing required so I will save that update for hopefully tonight when I begin blocking out the dynamic anatomy.

    I do have a question regarding style. I was researching some anatomy's to add to my library of reference and I came across these base meshes from the crew who made the game Injustice. I kinda dig going with the idea of using the center character for reference on the giant and using the left hand character for reference of Achilles though the actual scale of Achilles is more like the character on the right when compared to the Giant. (right now I have 7 feet tall for G and 6 feet tall for A). Any thoughts on breaking away a bit more from the scene from the movie with a slightly stylized anatomy?

    Input would be greatly appreciated!

    Thanks!
    Beneto_BaseMales.jpg
  14. ChaosCossack A Fixture

    Country:
    Canada
    IMHO the guy in the center is a little over the top.
    If you use the guy on the right as G... scaled to 7' of course and the cat on the left as A... scaled to 6'. There was a time I was built like "lefty" here but unfortunately it all came apart, crashed down and piled up around my waist :(:cry: Man, getting old really sucks :mad:

    Look forward to seeing your progress and the figs in the dynamic poses

    Colin
  15. ChaosCossack A Fixture

    Country:
    Canada
    PS- If you use the right fig for the G... the only adjustment I'd make is maybe to make him a little thicker through the waist... more powerful, less streamline.

    Just a thought

    Colin
  16. Ethan Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Thanks Colin, That is kind of the direction I was planning from the beginning so I appreciate the input.

    If anyone else would like to jump in, please do! I will have to make a choice tonight :sneaky:
  17. RKapuaala Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    I'd have to go with Colin if he means the figure on the right hand side of the Giant in the pic and not his right. I also think the waist, ankle, wrist and neck should be a little thicker; especially the waist.
    If you are going to stylize either figures I would avoid the body builder stylization. Warriors are thicker in areas that body builders tend to trim down and thinner in areas they tend to build up. In order to be a quick and agile swordsman Achilles would have to be well balanced. I would imagine him more thin and wiry with little body fat and lots of definition in the muscles, but very stout in the core. I think his armor should be what adds emphasis to his chest and limbs.
    I'd also imagine the giant to be a little more stooped. Most of the people over 6'2 that I know stoop a lot. I think it is out of habit of making eye contact. If your giant is a warrior, he is going to need to get to the level of his opponent or risk injury to his lower extremities.
    Ethan likes this.
  18. ChaosCossack A Fixture

    Country:
    Canada
    yep I meant the fig on the right... our right. The rest of your observations are also dead on.

    C
  19. Ethan Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Thanks for the input guys, that is very helpful. So the weekend was family and drinking with friends lol; so I pretty much didn't even turn the computer on but I was able to get some work done on the giants torso that I will post later today. It also looks like I will be able to work on the figures during some breaks in work hours over the next few days so hopefully that will boost me through to the detailing stage.
  20. Ethan Active Member

    Country:
    United-States
    Here is the progress so far. The posing is still loose and fine adjustments as well as all of the balance checks will be made when the anatomy is correct again.

    41914side.JPG

    41914front.JPG 41914back.JPG

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